31 replies to this topic

[shromada]

I need a little advice. Max on a rare occasion severely challenges my husband and only him. If Ken keeps directed him to do something, like down, and Max doesn't 'want to' do it (even after repeated commands), Ken will get up to command him again. Max will growl and snap at him and it keeps escalating. Last night Max bit Ken and didn't even stop. Ken body slammed him to the floor and sat on him until he became submissive. I then put him in his crate so I could tend to Ken. Any suggestions on how to stop this escalation in the future?




I must be tired I couldn't even spell aggression right.

Edited by shromada, 18 February 2009 - 11:22 AM.

[Bumpette]

Is Max allowed on the furniture or bed?

Is Ken ok?

[shromada]

I have been kicking him off all of he furniture. He thinks they are his. Ken has been letting him up on the couch at night. I told him it has to stop. He sleeps in his own bed on the floor by ours at night.

Ken has a nice gash on his little finger. Probably could have used a few stitches but butterfly bandages work wonders.

[Bumpette]

NO furniture at all. By allowing him up on the couch, he thinks he is your 'equal'. If Ken lets him up on the couch and you don't, that would probably be the reason he goes after Ken and not you.

Glad to hear that Ken wasn't injured too badly.

[shromada]

I told Ken this morning NO furniture at all. He finally is agreeing with me. I'll keep you informed on how Max does.

[bumpster]

Ken is below Max on the pecking order. You make Max stay on the lower level (off the furniture). Ken allows him on equal ground (on the furnature). Therefor Max sees Ken as a lesser member of the pack.

[Arda]

WHERE IS YOUR CRATE? Get it out or get one and use it. Right now, you are taking charge. For at least a week.....the dog goes out to potty and back in his crate. He must earn the free time. Feed him in the crate too. Don't let Ken aggrevate him. You give one command and then take action. Never tell the dog to sit 6 times and then make him sit. To the dog you are just an aggravation. One command only. NEVER, NEVER let him higher than you. NO furniture or bed. It's easy to turn around NOW but if you wait, it will cost the dog his life. Daily up dates, please.
"A" for Bumpette.

[Kari]

Have your husband enroll with Max in an obedience class . They will be spending quality time and Max will begin looking at him as the pack leader . It sounds like Max is challenging him for the top dog position .
If they work together on that , Max will learn his place and be satisfied in his place .

[shromada]

He happens to be in his crate right now. It is in our family room. I took him to obedience classes and he does listen to me more than Ken. He will have to work with him more though.

[Kari]

The obedience class isn't just meant for learning to sit and stay but for the bond it may build between your husband and the dog .
You put the dog in a totally strange place with strangers and other dogs and he will be looking to Ken for guidance and whats familiar to him .
The thing is to take charge like everyone is saying about furniture and keeping the dog below you but you need some good positive things too .

[Arda]

"A+" for Kari

[oreo5129]

I am so sorry this happened. I hope it all works to the best

Mary

[Kzoo]

Tessa cannot be allowed on furniture either. If she is, her attitude changes instantly.
I have noticed ALOT lately that I see alot of pictures of dogs on beds or furniture.
I was told NOT to do this 2 years ago............It's time to listen people!! :-) I mean that In a very kind way :-)

[Arda]

THANK YOU, Kzoo!
I'm not saying that there isn't dogs that can handle it but, I'm saying why take the chance. I have too many dogs to put down because I get them at 4 or 5 and it's a well established trait and they have already bitten someone. Don't do it. Go to the casino if you want to gamble but, do not gamble with my kids lives.

[Joaquin]

Max will growl and snap at him and it keeps escalating. Last night Max bit Ken and didn't even stop. Ken body slammed him to the floor and sat on him until he became submissive. I then put him in his crate so I could tend to Ken. Any suggestions on how to stop this escalation in the future?

Hi Sharon, I'll copy some advice I gave someone else on here below. I'll just add that an alpha does not compromise or negotiate and make sure to follow through when they are misbehaving, issue the command, if they don't listen an alpha would silently go to them and correct them. Show them there are consequences for ignoring the master, follow through don't get lazy with corrections, the same consistency that housebroke them will rid them of this too.


"Our Buddy(Lefty) also has an issue with growling both at Alley and us sometimes. Maddy, the trainer Arda recommended, says this SHOULD NEVER BE ALLOWED! (lol and that's how she says it too). She says things like this is a challenge to you and you HAVE to win EVERY single challenge given to you. She says an alpha would never tolerate an inferior packmate to do this to them and neither should you.

The proper correction according to her is to have a training collar on them and a leash. When they growl or uncontrollably bark....grab the leash about a foot up from the collar and bring your hands together like you are holding a baseball bat so they are touching each other (provides more power).....then while very loudly verbally correcting them, shake the bejesus out of them for 10 to 30 seconds depending on the serverity of the offense. Short for just growling but stopping when corrected and 30 seconds or more for showing teeth, snapping or continuing to keep it up through corrections.

Maddy said though to make sure that after you apply a correction (and they have stopped the no-no and are looking at you) to count to 2 and then praise them excitedly. Seems weird to praise them after the offense but it's dog sense we are trying to make here not human sense. The dog will see it like this.....I was barking or growling.......my master shook the heck out of me......I stopped and looked at them........I got praise..........oh I bet they didn't want me doing that.

Maddy said if they don't stop after the shaking then do it harder and longer until they do, count to 2 and then praise. Corrections of any type should always be followed by praise or else they don't correlate the correction to the deed until they stop and are praised for doing so.

Just thought I'd share the advice given to us. Good luck."

[Javaluva]

What I see is that Max sees your husband as a bully...and his growling and snapping WILL get worse if Ken keeps demanding things of Max using brute force. Max is protecting himself, plain and simple. Max is reacting to Ken out of fear for his safety, hence his escalation of defensive behavior (growling and snapping). Your husband is pushing Max to this degree with force...training does not, nor should it ever be, a battle.

Forcing Max into submission will only lead to the creation of a ticking time bomb. All that's happening when Max submits is suppression of the defensive behavior. In a nutshell, you're teaching him helplessness, which is not going to solve the problem. In order to stop the defensive behavior, Max needs to feel as though he's safe in the presence of your husband, not that he HAS to do something or ELSE. Suppressing the defensive behavior does not make it go away. It merely causes it to wait below the surface until the animal has reached a breaking point and can't stand to take any more bullying. At this point, he truly will bite with a vengeance. If you're seeing an escalation in the defensive behavior, using more force is only going to make it worse. Dogs perceive everything in their environment as either safe or dangerous...and Max sees your husband as a threat to his safety.

One thing to keep in mind about dogs and how they learn is that learning cannot take place when a dog is in a state of fear. If Max is afraid of your husband (which, to me, is certainly the case if he's growling and snapping at him in an effort to protect himself based on what you've described), the only thing on his mind is what he needs to be doing to protect himself. A dog's sense of survival will win out every time in any situation where fear and intimidation on the part of the human is involved. Max doesn't listen to Ken because he feels that he's going to be bullied, and, quite frankly, he sounds like he's tired of it.

Kids that are bullied out on the playground learn to resent the bully, and pretty soon, learn to resent having to go outside at all as they know from experience what the consequence is going to be.

Please be very careful with this dog and try to work toward building a positive safety history with him by not bullying him, but rather using more positive methods in your training. Dobermans certainly are tough dogs, but they, too, have a breaking point.

[Bumpette]

If Ken keeps directed him to do something, like down, and Max doesn't 'want to' do it (even after repeated commands), Ken will get up to command him again.

Last night Max bit Ken and didn't even stop. Ken body slammed him to the floor and sat on him until he became submissive. I then put him in his crate so I could tend to Ken.

Shromada,
I am wanting to make sure I am understanding the situation correctly. I took your post to mean that Ken is sitting on the couch and asks Max to 'sit', when Max doesn't sit, Ken asks him a couple more times, then Ken stands up and tells Max to 'sit' and places Max into the 'sit' position (like everybody is taught at obedience school). The only time Ken body slammed Max to the ground and sat on him is after Max bit him. Am I correct?

Lori

[shromada]

Shromada,
I am wanting to make sure I am understanding the situation correctly. I took your post to mean that Ken is sitting on the couch and asks Max to 'sit', when Max doesn't sit, Ken asks him a couple more times, then Ken stands up and tells Max to 'sit' and places Max into the 'sit' position (like everybody is taught at obedience school). The only time Ken body slammed Max to the ground and sat on him is after Max bit him. Am I correct?

Lori

Ken asked him to sit several times. He then got up to correct him. When he got up to correct him, Max started to growl at him. When he went to reach for his chain to correct him, he bit him. Max did not appear to want to stop so Ken grabbed him and put him down and stayed on top of him until his became submissive.

Sharon

[shromada]

He remained off of the furniture yesterday. He did not like it a first, but once he was on his own bed by our feet (and of course covered with a blanket) he stayed and was fine. He was loving as ever to Ken also.

[Kzoo]

Shromada,
I am not certain things will work out as fast as it did with My Tessa and my husband.
Tessa was on my lap ON the couch in my living room. Her head laying on my lap. Long story short, he leaned over to talk to me and pet her and she instantly snapped/snipped whatever you want to call it. Hurt absolutely nothing. Contacted SCD (we had her only for a couple of weeks at that time). Took her off of furniture (never was on our bed) I swear to you instantly her attitude changed. It really did. Tessa had and still has a very obsessional relationship towards me. She sees me as her savior or whatever you would like to name it and follows me at all times. My every command is followed. I am definitely an alpha here. But after that happened My 13 year old is an alpha, my 15 year old is an alpha, my 18 year old is an alpha and my 40 year old husband is an alpha. Get what I am saying? NOW she is knocked below every one of us in alpha order and knows her place in our pack. We also have other dogs. Our 15 year old dachshund was even OVER Tessa in the chain of command. Tessa is the lowest in pecking order here, but she doesn't seem to mind it as long as she can be in every room that I am in. But I do know one thing, if we put her on top of our couch again she would instantly think she is alpha again. She would snap at the other dogs, etc. I think you get the point. It may not make a difference in your home but it made a world of difference in ours. Now we have a very, very very loving doberman and all of our friends/ family adore her. EVEN those who were once afraid of her have accepted and they teasingly call her the wimpy doberman (only WE know differently!!). I wish you all the luck in the world, I really do. I know you can work it out!
Take Care,
Melissa K.