65 replies to this topic

[Arda]

let Alley walk out before Lefty. Feed them at the same time but put her bowl down first. Muzzle when they are out in the yard together. Designate a spot for each dog to eat and keep to it. Do you have crates? If not borrow a pair. Or we have a couple we will lend out.

[Joaquin]

let Alley walk out before Lefty. Feed them at the same time but put her bowl down first. Muzzle when they are out in the yard together. Designate a spot for each dog to eat and keep to it. Do you have crates? If not borrow a pair. Or we have a couple we will lend out.

Hi Arda,

Ok we will start letting Alley walk out before Lefty, I had just thought it was most important that we walk out before they do. Now with feeding we were making them both lay down while we were preparing the food and even when we put the bowls down in their spots, and then we would release them to eat after we made them wait a bit. So are you saying we should release Alley to her bowl first but how much time after that do we release Buddy to go eat?

We do have access to crates, other than when we are not home and after a fight, when should they be put in their crates? (I'm not used to crate training dogs) And then how long do we leave them in it for misbehaving? Do we put the crates in the same room as one another? Should the crates be in the room that we spend the most time in?

Is there some sort of exercises Sarah can do with the dogs, for example putting them on their backs, in order to help her establish dominance?

Also, does anyone have a link to the kind of muzzle Arda was describing ("nylon muzzles that go up the side of the face and around the neck") so I can get an idea what I am looking for? Our local shop didn't have much of a selection.

Thanks again in advance!

Joaquin

[Javaluva]

Now with feeding we were making them both lay down while we were preparing the food and even when we put the bowls down in their spots, and then we would release them to eat after we made them wait a bit. So are you saying we should release Alley to her bowl first but how much time after that do we release Buddy to go eat?

When I feed my dogs, the dog that's not being a maniac gets the food first in order to teach by example that you don't get your food when you're flipping out happy to eat. Nothing wrong with being happy to eat, just don't take me out in the process. In your case, completely ignore Buddy while you work with Alley at feeding time. Have Alley sit or lay down, have her heel, have her do something to earn her food first and then feed her. When you're done with Alley, do the same for Buddy.

We do have access to crates, other than when we are not home and after a fight, when should they be put in their crates? (I'm not used to crate training dogs) And then how long do we leave them in it for misbehaving? Do we put the crates in the same room as one another? Should the crates be in the room that we spend the most time in?

For misbehavior, my dogs have been known to stay in the crates for the rest of the night without supper, depending on whether they've commited a misdemeanor (immediatley stopping a fight when I tell them to knock it off) or a felony (not stopping when I tell them to knock it off). My dogs' crates are in the same room together and that's where they go when they're bad. I've only ever had one crate fight between two dogs, and one of the dogs was not in a crate at the time. If they're fighting between the walls of their crates, seperate them into different rooms or put up a barricade between the crates--a scrap piece of plywood works nicely and it's what Arda uses.

My dog room is seperate from our general living area, mostly for convenience on our part, but it doubles nicely as a time out and resting area. For time outs, they go to their crates with the door to their room closed to isolate them from what they want most--our attention. Attention is something they earn and not something they get when they've been bad. When resting, their crates are open and the dog room door is open so they can use their crates as they wish (when we're not at home, they're crated with their doors shut so they don't have access to the house).

Is there some sort of exercises Sarah can do with the dogs, for example putting them on their backs, in order to help her establish dominance?

I would NOT advocate anyone doing a "dominance roll" on a large breed dog to establish an alpha roll. I know that if I tried to pull off such a thing with my male, I'd surely be bitten in a heart beat. Not only is it tough to force a large breed dog into such a position if the dog refuses to be rolled, it puts the roller in a prime position to be bitten in the face.

Have Sarah work on obedience with dogs when she's alone with them. Have them sit to earn affection, have them down/stay to earn affection, have them sit nicely and calmly in front position to earn affection. Use treats to coerce them until they get the idea that everything they want in life does not come without a price.

When Sarah is walking them, the dogs should not be dragging her down the street. They should be walking next to her or behind her. The leader of the pack leads the pack.

Also, does anyone have a link to the kind of muzzle Arda was describing ("nylon muzzles that go up the side of the face and around the neck") so I can get an idea what I am looking for? Our local shop didn't have much of a selection.

Here's a link to a Google search I did on "nylon dog muzzle": http://www.google.co...G=Google Search You should be able to find all sorts of nylon muzzles at those sites. Although not easily, a dog can still bite through a soft-sided muzzle, although not as visciously, so be careful in that regard.

Good luck and keep us posted on how you guys are progressing. I, for one, am very thankful that you guys are looking for alternatives to make your situation work rather than giving up on Alley and Buddy. Only on rare occassions do people have multiple dogs that don't fight. For me, it's a matter of knowing my dogs' triggers and disenguaging the behavior before it escalates to a viscious fight. 99% of the time all I have to do is tell everyone to knock it off and peace is restored.

You'll get there...just be patient and keep trying.

Mandy

[oreo5129]

let Alley walk out before Lefty. Feed them at the same time but put her bowl down first. Muzzle when they are out in the yard together. Designate a spot for each dog to eat and keep to it. Do you have crates? If not borrow a pair. Or we have a couple we will lend out.

You will be happy to know that my dogs are not allowed on my living room furniture any more. I don't know why I got into allowing that to happen. Adonis was never allowed.
We have a pecking order in our house. Cocoa eats first, gets her treats first, is petted first when I come home, then it's Titan's turn, and then Mollie's. We follow this always. Titan gets possessive of me at times, when I am sitting at the computer and he is sitting next to me, he rarely will snap and growl at either Cocoa or Mollie if they come near. It's not tolerated, and now I stop the behavior before it begins. You can see it in Titan's eyes, face, and posture, and I refocus him as soon as I see this and I pay very close attention when he is sitting by me.
Never a dull moment with these kids, huh?

Mary

[Kzoo]

Not that I take any of this lightly, I am hoping you might see some humor in our household. When Becca our 15 year old 10 pound dachsie wants to eat, even Tessa @ 75 pounds lets her eat first, always. Becca is the boss here, plain and simple. Java and Tate are equals I would say because they are male/female equation......no one fights, honestly. As long as .........Becca eats first. (knocking on wood!)
And on another note, when we had the problem with Tessa on the furniture, literally it took one entire evening of telling her NO and we haven't had a moment since of problems. Has she tried? Absolutely, but never in front of us. Just the other evening she was allowed to roam free and I always put her in the back living room by herself and I walked in the back door and she unexpectedly saw me walk through the door and she flew and I mean FLEW off of the couch!! She immediately was told "CAGE!!" and she ran to her cage!
Her cage can be for punishment or pleasure, trust me she goes in there alot just to lay down and relax, she loves her cage.
Anyways--Just thought I would share a moment at the Kzoo house!! There is a reason we are called KZOO by our friends, *hence* the name!!
MElissa K.

[Melissa34]

Yes, you should walk out the door first, followed by Alley then Lefty. In that order. Alpha on down.

[Kzoo]

Arda--
....take care and see you in Sept 15....I am very excited for you to see our Big Girl NOW Tessa!

[Vicki_Wood]

I am very lucky in that Coby and Gracie do not fight about anything, but it is totally because Coby is so submissive. She'll get testy sometimes when he tries to take her bone or toy, but he always backs down. Outside sometimes she gets a little rough with him and that's when I step in. I feed them both at the same time, but in different rooms and they have to sit in the doorway of the room while I prepare it and put it down. Coby is too excitable and has almost knocked me down a couple of times. He still tests that rule when it comes to food, but he's trying real hard. It just all depends on the personality of the dogs involved.

[doberpagegirl]

Well today Buddy had to get staples where Alley bit him. The doctor said it didn't look bad, but he put Buddy on antibiotics anyway. He also said that Buddy's hair loss spot was a bacterial infection. He said the antibiotics would help with that too and we are going back in 2 weeks for him to remove the staples and check on Buddy's hair loss. He said the bacterial infection might not be the only reason for the hair loss, so he will see how he improves after the antibiotics. We have not had any fights since the big one, but we have not really been letting them play hard since we were afraid Buddy would rip open his wound. I do think I know what happened now though. Yesterday we were in the yard after our walk, and they were still on leashes. A squirrel came out and Buddy started to freak out. We have been working with him trying to get over his apparent paranoia about squirrels and I grabbed his leash and he turned to Alley who was right next to him and snapped at her. She did not like that, and I yelled and pulled their leashes and they stopped, but I think that is what happened with the chiuaua. He wasn't really snapping at Alley I don't think, he was still obsessed with the squirrel, but she saw it as snapping at her, and she wasn't willing to tolerate THAT!! Buddy is absolutely crazy with ANY small animal. He will start whining and jumping around just freaking out. We have been working on it and he is getting better. The sad part is our squirrels are used to Page and they know the dogs can't get out of the fence. So they will literally sit 6 inches on the other side of the fence, or in the top of my lilac bushes just teasing the poor dogs. Page never cared unless they dared to enter her yard, and Alley doesn't seem to care either, but poor Buddy they are his weakness. We have also been feeding Alley first and taking her out first. He has growled at her a couple times in the house. Usually when he is sitting next to and getting attention from one of us, and she approaches. We immediately correct him, so hopefully he is catching on. They really are good dogs and so smart. We can already see they are learning and we will just keep plugging on til they get it. Thanks so much for all the help, we'll keep everyone updated.

[Stacie]

I do think I know what happened now though. Yesterday we were in the yard after our walk, and they were still on leashes. A squirrel came out and Buddy started to freak out. We have been working with him trying to get over his apparent paranoia about squirrels and I grabbed his leash and he turned to Alley who was right next to him and snapped at her.

We had a cat like that - actually they were brothers and every time the one saw an animal outside from a window it would spaz out and start hissing and attacking anything or one in site. He bit my husband in one of his tantrums and would attack his brother constantly. Funny how something so little can cause such a ruckus!

[Vicki_Wood]

Coby has actually knocked the fence down going after squirrels.

[Melissa34]

Figuring out their quirks is half the battle.... good job on that!

You caught the issue today before it escalated and that is so much better than the last time. Give yourself a pat on the back and take a deep sigh of relief! Lesson #1 is has been accomplished

[oreo5129]

I do think I know what happened now though. Yesterday we were in the yard after our walk, and they were still on leashes. A squirrel came out and Buddy started to freak out. We have been working with him trying to get over his apparent paranoia about squirrels and I grabbed his leash and he turned to Alley who was right next to him and snapped at her.

We had a cat like that - actually they were brothers and every time the one saw an animal outside from a window it would spaz out and start hissing and attacking anything or one in site. He bit my husband in one of his tantrums and would attack his brother constantly. Funny how something so little can cause such a ruckus!

My first SCD love, Adonis would turn on Cocoa in a flash if she started barking at something she heard. He never drew blood, neither did she, but they sounded like they were killing each other before I could seperate them I used a shock collar on him for awhile, but he knew when I would put the collar on him what would happen with his bad behavior. These animals are so smart. He and Cocoa were best buds. He was the only dog that Cocoa befriended-not Brady, not Mollie, not Titan, and poor Titan tries his darnest to get her to play with him, and she just looks at him like "Are you nuts, I don't play".
But even though she and Adonis had spats, she would lay by him and clean his face, and when she would stop, Adonis would nudge her with his nose, as though telling her not to stop. He wouldn't go outside until he found her and tried to "talk" her into going out. He was quite the conversationalist, and couch sitter Just one of those love/hate relationships. I guess

Mary

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[doberpagegirl]

It happened again. Last night Buddy started to squat like he had to go, and I grabbed both dogs and ran outside without their muzzles on. The only muzzles we found at pet supplies plus were velcro, and we got them but they don't work very well. So, we went out Buddy did his business and as we were walking back to the house a squirrel crosses the driveway right in front of Buddy and Alley. Buddy goes crazy and they start fighting. I grab the hose and spray them and Alley tries to run away and Buddy jumps on her again. I am still spraying, and they break up after a minute and Buddy runs for the gate which my roommate did not close completely. So, I am yelling and Alley stops and comes to me and I have to chase Buddy into my neighbor's yard, where he is snapping at my neighbors pit bull which is in it's outdoor run.Buddy could not see this dog from our yard, but when our dogs started up, the pit bull started to bark.I drag him back to our yard and they are both bleeding and he is limping. So I call the new vet who we went to for the first time yesterday, and he has left for the day, ( it was after hours). The lady asks if there is a lot of blood on any cuts, or is he whining when you touch the leg. There isn't and he isn't so she says be there at 8am when they open and the vet will check them out. So at 8am we are at the vets again and Alley needed staples this time on a inch and a half gash on top of her head and another inch gash on her side. Poor Buddy is in a very uncomfortable looking splint because he dislocated his elbow, which the vet says is pretty rare and he is lucky it wasn't broken. He has to be kept confined in his crate and quiet for 5 days and then go back to the vet to check it. There is still swollen tissue right now.Then he is going to need some rehabilitation for the joint. The vet said it will be a couple of months before he will be able to run or jump. I asked if this would lead to arthritis when he's older and the vet said, yes it probably will. The vet also said this sounds like "prey drive", Buddy sees the small animal and goes after whatever he can get to. He suggested we use an electric shock collar to break him of it. He said he used this to break his Irish setter of chasing rabbits. He said if we cannot break Buddy of the prey drive, he can't see them being allowed in the yard together ever. The vet said at this point it is a safety matter, he said Buddy might break the fence down to go after something if his prey drive is this strong. Now 3 sides of our fence are chain link, so he really couldn't break through it. However,one side is wooden privacy fence. The vet did say a trainer might be able to help without the use of an electric collar. We figure we have a few weeks to find a trainer or a collar with some sort of instruction video for us. It will be at least that long before Buddy can walk around again. The vet said if we could not get past it we could have them live seperate lives, basically never let them near each other. We can't see living like this. We still want to try to stop this behavior. In the house they are fine, and I don't think this would happen in the house. We had already ordered muzzles from the internet since we didn't like the velcro ones, but they haven't arrived yet. We already figured we would be taking them out separatly until Buddy is well enough to start training and conditioning him on this, but we could use some serious advice on this "prey drive". I will put up some pictures of their injuries when J gets done resizing them.



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[Joaquin]

Alley and Buddy's Wound Pictures


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Alley's Head Staples

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Alley's Side Staples

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Buddy's(Lefty) Splint

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Buddy's(Lefty) Staples

[Stacie]

I hope they both heal real good and fast. I also hope you can break him of that prey drive so that your lives can go back to normal!

[oreo5129]

I'm so sorry that you have to go through this. I have used a shock collar and it does help.
I will be crossing my fingers and hoping this works out

Mary

[doberpagegirl]

It is so frustrating, because they are learning so much other stuff. We haven't had a potty accident in a week. Even when buddy was squatting the other night, he ran to the front door and squatted on the doormat. And Alley will already lay down and stay while she waits for her food, and while we are eating. They both have started to get "sit" and they both understand "no". I am pretty distraught over this. Joaquin is fairly confident that we can break Buddy of it with an electric collar, but I want him to take obedience lessons, even if we do use the collar. If anyone knows of a good trainer who can help with this behavioral problem, please post it. We live in the Saginaw area, but I am not opposed to driving if that is necessary to find help for this, once Buddy is healed enough to start working on this. Thanks so much.

[oreo5129]

There's Maddy, can't think of her last name, it might be Berkobien, Arda and others here on the board know her. She teaches obedience classes out at Swan Valley Schools, and I think classes start up in Sept. I also think she is an animal behaviorist, again Arda and some of the others know more. You can call Swan Valley and ask who teaches their obedience classes

Mary

[Sydneysmom]

I am pretty distraught over this. Joaquin is fairly confident that we can break Buddy of it with an electric collar, but I want him to take obedience lessons, even if we do use the collar. If anyone knows of a good trainer who can help with this behavioral problem, please post it.

WOW!!! I feel bad for all 4 of you!!!! Don't give up!!!! That could be the reason he was 'left' on Easter - someone did not take the time to figure Buddy out and could not control this.

I have a friend who is a dog trainer and the owner of the kennel, is a behavioralist who trains police dogs and also competes his dogs in Schutzhund. I will see if I can get some information for you. His place is in Ortonville (not real close to you). www.commonscentscanine.com
I asked him before about the Schutzund training - *it is redirecting aggression and managing prey drive*. Absolutely get some obedience training with them and maybe, if you did some research on this you could find just some kind of exercises to REDIRECT his prey drive when a situation comes. So he knows ONLY to go after whatever it is you exercise with him. I am not saying he is a Schutzund dog- just use some of the exercises to satisfy his drive.
I don't know if you could EVER 'remove' the behavior - but YOU can learn how to redirect it and control it!
I have trained my dogs to "live in harmony" with cats. I know your problem is more severe, but since Buddy will be laid up for a bit - looking into other options will help you all. Knowledge is key!

If I find anything out I will post it for you.
Remember-those two came into your lives, not by chance, there is a reason they are in your loving care.