42 replies to this topic

[Arda]

Wow! Let me absorb this a little. I don't know where to start. Where does he sleep? Sure glad you had him altered. Is he ever allowed on the furniture? Do you use a crate with him? Is he allowed to walk out the door in front of you or does he wait? When he brings the ball back to you, is he on a long line or just loose? I need some answers and I need to think a bit. The female you have, is she one of the litter of 13 from the Howell area? Is she using a crate? Where does she sleep? I take it you already know about Lornich.

[Diana]

A lot to absorb and think about, whew, give you credit for hanging in there, but, those are the dogs that are so worth it. Thanks for sharing your story, I am sure many will have interesting advice for you.

[KellyB]

RedFawn,

I had a simular issue with my Myles. I took him to the local kennel club to get his Canine Good Citizenship. He nipped at an instuctor out of fear and she never wanted anything more to do with him. It took two classes and some one on one with one of our local K-9 cops thats a trainer and now he's fine. Good luck and I'm sure Arda will have some ideas for you.


Kelly

[Kari]

Spayed your female . I fostered a female that was unaltered till my vet appointment and just her being in my house for 2 wks unaltered had my neutered males acting crazy and she wasn't in heat .
You say that he does good with other people . It could be he isn't looking at you as his pack leader .
A lot of times you really need a trainer who will train you . LOL . The dog picks up on your reactions and how you handle things . A calm stern voice and meaning it go a long way . Have someone that is very confident walk him and then start joining in and you pick up on their ways .
Try the simple things . Don't be tense and stressed when you cross paths with another dog . Be in charge and confident . Your reactions reflect on your dog . Work your way slowly . Once you see the slightest change you will be proud that you did it and be more confident to work him through his other problems .
Thats just my opinion . I've fostered a lot of dogs lately and learning a lot along the way .

[jmnodwell]

Dave & Rachel, I'm so glad you finally found us!!! Sounds like you have had a very long road with a lot of twists and turns along the way. Kudos to you for sticking it out!!! I, too, had a very reactive dober-girl when she was in public. She always had to be managed but we, after a long road, could go out in public without too many problems.

Here are a couple of links of positive reinforcement trainers in the area. My friend, Maggie Ouillette, does in-home training and evaulations and uses positive methods. Serendipity Dog Training. I don't know anything about the woman in Davisburg but if she's part of Karen Pryor's site, she is a good trainer. Positive Reinforcement Trainers

Without actually being in your home with you to assess the situation the first things I would recommend are to work on Bane's trust in you. There are many ways to achieve this but the first three things are: NILIF which stands for "Nothing in Life is Free" which means... he must do something for you to get something he wants... I usually use the sit but you can also use down, stand, whatever but if he wants out, he has to sit... if he wants dinner, he has to sit... this starts to get him thinking that he has to rely on you for everything. Eventually you will expand this to include assessing the situation when in public. In my experience, his acting up in public and with other dogs is because he is afraid of them and if he acts big and scary enough, they will go away and leave him alone. He needs to have enough trust in you to let you decide what he needs to do in these types of situations. This means he must rely and trust in you. One way I encourage this is to hand feed him... One kibble at a time... it doesn't have to be for long period of time, sometimes only days and you have their attitude towards you turned around but you have to show him, and enforce in a positive way, that YOU matter in his world. Another thing I would recommend is to put him on-leash in the house and attached to you. Again this shows him that you are in control because you control where he goes, what he does and when. This will also start to desensitize his reaction to the leash because it won't be out only for walks, etc. Keep him on-leash when you take him out to potty, when he has, then a short off-leash one-on-one play session, then back on-leash and back in the house. If he is not on-leash he should be in his crate. He, and Bella, should be off all furniture as well... This elevates them in their minds to be equal to you. They have to learn that you are the alpha in the pack, not them, and you will handle the situation, whatever it may be.

A couple of other exercises you can start now are the The "Attention" Game and Leave It Command. Both of these will get him focused on you.

Although it pains me to admit this, I was raised in the "break their spirit" method of training so I understand how hard it is to find a trainer you can feel comfortable with. I have completely abandoned those methods and work only with positive reinforcement usually with clicker in hand. Here are several previous threads about clicker training.
Clicker Training - Why it Works
Clicker Training - How to get started

A great site for positive reinforcement training tips is Dog Scouts of America. The Attention Game and Leave It articles are from them. They also have some great ideas for loose leash walking when you're ready.

One last thing, like with discipline in children, consistency is key. This is going to be a change in your mindset as well as his. Having gone through a similar situation with my Bella, I would stop the socializing and focus on the confidence building in himself and you. Keep him at home as much as possible until you begin to see his focus shift more and more consistently on you. Then start small... go sit on the front porch and watch people in the neighborhood... go for a short car ride (but don't get out)... once you've expanded, go to Petsmart but sit on the side walk at a distance far enough away that he doesn't feel threatened/aggravated by the other dogs. Also keep these sessions short. I prefered using a "Gentle Leader" to a pinch collar but you have to feel confident that you can control Bane...

One last thing... this training won't hurt your Bella either... but have one of you concentrate and do everything with/for Bane and the other with Bella, then in a month or so, switch off... One thing I recommend in training is that while you want the dog to obey everyone in the house and even though you go over it, everyone in the family is not at the same "level" of consistency, just a fact of life, by you doing all the training, you achieve that consistent approach until the bond is set. Then you can switch off, let the other dog bond with you, then you can both work with both dogs but each new behaviour should be introduced and worked with by one person.

I've rattled on long enough... Please keep us posted on your progress and never hesitate to ask questions... Just remember to relax and feel confident yourself, Bane will pick up on that as much as your cues that you are nervous about a situation too...

Edited by jmnodwell, 29 April 2009 - 08:14 AM.

[Arda]

Hey, out there, RednFawn, I never got an answer to my questions. Come on. I need you to answer these questions.

[doberpagegirl]

I am no expert, but I have dealt with reactivity with my own boy. Small animals used to make him beserk. He attacked my female over a little dog outside of our fence, and he was NOT playing. She needed 9 staples in her head where he attacked. The most important thing for breaking him of it was consistency. EVERY SINGLE TIME YOU MUST WIN. If the dog gets away with something he will not obey you, you are not Alpha. Alpha NEVER gives in, or compromises. It is Alpha's way period. Also, we must control EVERYTHING. To get food he must lay down and wait. To go in or out, he must sit and wait. To get petted he must sit or lay down for me. Nothing for free, and I mean nothing. I would try the leash on him at all times again, and you have to follow through. If you aren't completely consistent, the dog will fail. Do you have a chain training collar and do you know how to do a pop release correction? If the leash is on at all times it gives you the ability to apply this correction consistently. Also, we do use the crate for "time outs". If he gets too excited or grouchy with my girls, he goes in the crate. The same applies to my females. I would lose my sanity without their crates.

[jmnodwell]

His overall behavior around the house has been improving as of late, which is kind of surprising to me since my Bella is in season. I anticipated him to be quite the pain but have been pleasantly surprised.

Yesterday I walked him around the house for a while on his leash. When he calmed down, we went out and got in the car. We then went to one of the open parks that we play at and sat in the car. I waited between each step for him to calm down before advancing to the next. He seems to catch - it was almost like a game to him I think. We then went to the dog park. I waited for him to calm down before we got out of the car. I would only approach the gate when he was calm, one step at a time. We did NOT go in the park though. We sat outside the fence and watched.

Great job!!! They behave so much better when they have a "job" to do even if it is just being calm... Glad to hear your work is paying off. It takes dedicated owners like you to work through the issues and expose that diamond!!!

If a dog would be playing rough or running too much he would get anxious and then start barking and being a pain.

Just walk away until you are far enough away so he can calm down... when he is then approach again... if you watch his triggers you will get to where you will recognize and distract him so he never gets over anxious...

[doberpagegirl]

Yesterday I walked him around the house for a while on his leash. When he calmed down, we went out and got in the car. We then went to one of the open parks that we play at and sat in the car. I waited between each step for him to calm down before advancing to the next. He seems to catch - it was almost like a game to him I think. We then went to the dog park. I waited for him to calm down before we got out of the car. I would only approach the gate when he was calm, one step at a time. We did NOT go in the park though. We sat outside the fence and watched. He would do okay for a while but something would set him off. I was talking to a couple of other Dobe owners at the park - one of which happens to be the second home of one of my Bellas littermates - and he would sit on alert most of the time, but not out of control. If a dog would be playing rough or running too much he would get anxious and then start barking and being a pain. I bought him a new collar yesterday too. The one we had on him was a plain nylon collar with the plastic clasp, but the new one is nylon with a buckle and it is kind of like a choker, It has two D-rings so that it adjusts instantly and he can't pull out of it which was something that he would do occasionally before.

I am not entirely sure what you mean by a "pop release correction" but if it's the act of giving a firm tug on his lead when he is acting up, that is what I do, and if he keeps at it I put him on his side and hold him there until he cooperates.

Thanks again for your input and suggestions, and I will keep checking in for more!

I will try to explain this as well as my trainer did. I say pop release because I use a metal training collar, sometimes called a choke collar. If used properly it will NEVER choke your dog, only the human can do that by improper use. Anyways, when you give a sharp quick tug on it, the collar will make a pop sound and you release. The training collar sends a static electric charge to your dog to get it's attention. It is static electric like you get when you rub your socked feet on carpet. It does not hurt the dog, but it gets it's attention quick.

It sounds like you have the right idea though. Make him work for everything. Dobes are working dogs and they do best with a job, even if the job is just to sit by you. Keep working with him in baby steps and he will start to catch on.

[oreo5129]

Each dog is such an individual, though. Dewey is doing very well in class. Nemo is very different. Smart as a whip, but headstrong. Even though walking him is 100 x's better than 2 months ago, he doesn't walk WITH me, if you know what I mean. Constant struggle to keep him in a heel position. I have done everything I've learned in class so far. He is hyper-alert when he is outside, constantly watching and waiting for things to happen. Although both he and Dewey knew their commends sit, down and stay, Nemo will not sit when commanded outside. I have to force his butt down, and I mean force. I am not in this class to fail with either dog and I am doing home exercises every day and longer than the given time the exercise says to do. It's not that he doesn't get it, he doesn't want to get it. I hope my will is stronger than his has been so far and will be able to get him his certificate.

Mary

[jmnodwell]

After my last post it was off to the park again (after I fought through all of the local traffic because of the problem on I-696)
He was much more calm today from start to finish. We didn't actually enter the park, but we walked the fenceline and he was pretty relaxed. He did get a little silly a few times, but there was a noticeable improvement. We made it into the first of two gates and tried that.

Baby steps... lol

EXCELLENT!!! Now you have the idea!!! Just remember that everyone has good days and bad days and don't be disappointed if you also take a step or two backwards once and a while too...

A great child "training" tip I heard once we if your child is throwing a fit in the grocery store, give them a warning and if they don't settle down, leave. Don't check out, don't shop more, just walk out (after having someone from the store return your groceries). Sometimes all you have to do is go to the car and they will settle down and you can go back in but you have to get them out of the environment that is triggering their behaviour. It works wonders and I've used it with my niece a time or two... "Auntie can I have this, Auntie can I have that" whine whine whine... "NO, we're leaving, I'll come back and shop without you"... brings her up short now.. but I did have to just leave the store with her... the first time home we went, the next time just out to the car...

Dogs are the same... you have to always be managing their environment and through that their behaviour. Life with greyhounds and then Bella has taught me that... LOL Imagine living with a dog reactive dog that can see clearly a quarter of a mile away!!! That's a lot of environment to manage... thankfully he was only a foster...

[debl]

Each dog is such an individual, though. Dewey is doing very well in class. Nemo is very different. Smart as a whip, but headstrong. Even though walking him is 100 x's better than 2 months ago, he doesn't walk WITH me, if you know what I mean. Constant struggle to keep him in a heel position. I have done everything I've learned in class so far. He is hyper-alert when he is outside, constantly watching and waiting for things to happen. Although both he and Dewey knew their commends sit, down and stay, Nemo will not sit when commanded outside. I have to force his butt down, and I mean force. I am not in this class to fail with either dog and I am doing home exercises every day and longer than the given time the exercise says to do. It's not that he doesn't get it, he doesn't want to get it. I hope my will is stronger than his has been so far and will be able to get him his certificate.

Mary

Mary,

Nemo sounds like Klaus. Super intelligent, knows the commands, but just doesn't want to always obey. When he finally decides I'm not backing down & if he wants to go outside..for instance..he will put his butt down..in slooowww mootioon. Sometimes I want to laugh. But I don't.

Deb

[Cheri]

Each dog is such an individual, though. Dewey is doing very well in class. Nemo is very different. Smart as a whip, but headstrong. Even though walking him is 100 x's better than 2 months ago, he doesn't walk WITH me, if you know what I mean. Constant struggle to keep him in a heel position. I have done everything I've learned in class so far. He is hyper-alert when he is outside, constantly watching and waiting for things to happen. Although both he and Dewey knew their commends sit, down and stay, Nemo will not sit when commanded outside. I have to force his butt down, and I mean force. I am not in this class to fail with either dog and I am doing home exercises every day and longer than the given time the exercise says to do. It's not that he doesn't get it, he doesn't want to get it. I hope my will is stronger than his has been so far and will be able to get him his certificate.

Mary

I've had a couple of instructors where I train tell me that dogs don't generalize well. In other words, they may not completely understand that "sit" means "sit," anytime, anyplace. So if you do all your training in your own home for example, even though theyre doing great, they may not realize they are expected to respond the same way to that word when you are outside or at the vet's office or wherever. So you have to practice your training in a variety of locations and situations. I can really see that with my two, Logan especially. When we're at class, he comes to me like a bullet on one command. When he's outside in the yard, it's like he doesn't even hear me! So I have a lot of work to do with him. I have also had people tell me about obedience-titled dogs who heel perfectly when in training or in the show ring, but you can't take them for a walk at the park without them pulling your arm off!

[oreo5129]

I've had a couple of instructors where I train tell me that dogs don't generalize well. In other words, they may not completely understand that "sit" means "sit," anytime, anyplace. So if you do all your training in your own home for example, even though theyre doing great, they may not realize they are expected to respond the same way to that word when you are outside or at the vet's office or wherever. So you have to practice your training in a variety of locations and situations. I can really see that with my two, Logan especially. When we're at class, he comes to me like a bullet on one command. When he's outside in the yard, it's like he doesn't even hear me! So I have a lot of work to do with him. I have also had people tell me about obedience-titled dogs who heel perfectly when in training or in the show ring, but you can't take them for a walk at the park without them pulling your arm off!

Thanks for your comments. Nemo acts like he has never seen a landscape, grass, birds, noises, etc at home. He shakes all the while he walks and I force him to sit, just trembles
comments?
Mary

[LStevens]

I have been reading about Bane, and felt compelled to at least share my story with you. My husband and I adopted Grindle (a 4-year-old neutered male) and Betty (a Dobe mix female) in 2005. Betty had a variety of physical problems. Grindle had some emotional issues: very whiny, a lot of anxiety. Grindle almost immediately became "velcroed" to me. He had a bad habit of trying to bite people, coming from behind. He ultimately did bite two people. Luckily no lawsuit, and the second one was never reported to the authorities by the "victim." Needless to say, he is ALWAYS under watchful eye. I noticed early on that occasionally his head would shake uncontrollably. I could never tell when these "episodes" were coming, as they came and went without rhyme or reason. We worked through the "biting" issue. However, whoever had owned him previously, something REALLY BAD must have happened to him at the hands of someone that owned a Harley. Dirt bikes can go up and down the street all day long. Grindle hears a Harley, even at a distance, it's like someone flipped a switch.

Through the years, we have come to learn that our initial assessment of him as being a fear-biter, has changed to that of a very dominant male. I've had horses for 25 years, and I know the meaning of being the "Alpha" - AND I AM. They get nothing for free, not even attention. They have to work for everything, and there is no compromising.

Two years ago, my husband rescued two Beagles (he likes to rabbit hunt). The Beagles are great hunting dogs, and had their own condo in the barn. However, the female is almost 10, and the winters are too severe, even with heated kennel pads, insulation, straw and all the rest. This last winter they have been inside, and become part of the "pack." All went well until sometime in February. I came home to a bloodbath: Grindle and the male Beagle had had a terrible fight. Since then, they have patched things up. In the meantime, Grindle had been having more "episodes" of the head-shaking. The vet put him on Prednisone. That took care of the tremors, but made him more aggressive. Needless to say, I took him off the Pred. About three weeks ago, on a weekend, Grindle became just spastic: running, crying, whining. And there was no reason for it. Nothing out of the ordinary. If he couldn't see me, he would make sounds like someone was killing him. Running, running, circling, terribly anxious. We took him running. Like the "Dog Whisperer" says, they need exercise. And he gets a lot of exercise. However, as the weekend went along, he was just beside himself.

The Monday following that weekend -- I was at work, so I didn't witness this firsthand -- a couple came to visit my neighbor across the street ON A HARLEY. My husband was home, the dogs were all in the back yard (which BTW is hot-wired). Grindle literally lost is mind. When the people on the Harley went to leave, he went racing towards the fence by the garage, as did the male Beagle. The Beagle got in the way, and Grindle literally turned on him. I guess it was a horrible fight, as Grindle had the Beagle pinned. My husband took a shovel handle and whacked Grindle in the back to break his attention, which it did, and the fight ended. The Beagle is OK now, after 10 days on antibiotics. Amazingly, the two males have patched things up. They even sleep together. WEIRD. However, THEY ARE NEVER LEFT UNATTENDED OR UNSUPERVISED. If we are going to be gone, the Beagles go to the pen; the Dobes stay in the house.

After that, we talked to the vet. Grindle is now on Prozac. It took 2 weeks to kick in, but it was well worth it. I have my dog back. He doesn't act "medicated," just not anxious and not aggressive. I hated to do it, but it will prolong his life. He's not a bad dog. Like someone said earlier about the Lornich dogs: "He's not wired right." Initially I thought Grindle's problem was purely an emotional deal that training could take care of -- and it did, to a great extent. But with the head tremors, and the anxiety, something had to give . . . and I didn't want it to be his life. So, my vet wrote a script, and for $8 a month, I have virtually a normal dog.

I don't know if Bane has a similar problem, but from what you've written it appears there are parallels. I feel your frustration. It's entirely your call. With a child in the mix, I don't know what to tell you. I'm a throwback to the '60s, and decided to follow a mantra from the past: Better living through chemistry. I don't know if this helps you, other than to let you know: YOU'RE NOT ALONE.

Linda

[Arda]

There's a name for that. Something like " redirected aggression". He's mad as heck at the motorcycle and can't get to it so he bites the beagle. We will never know what they have been through but if you spend the time to "listen" to them most of the pieces come together. Kari's male Draeko used to do it and she got bit at one time because she was the "beagle". Eric does it in mild form. Linda, please describe the head tremors for me. A piece of one of my missing puzzles. Does his head go back and forth or up and down? My Mickey's head went up and down. She was whelped into my hands and never had anyone touch her after I weaned her from Ericka but me. When these weird head shakes started, the only thing that stopped them was a hard biscuit. When she bit into the biscuit, the head bobbing would stop. I'm just trying to add to the brain bank.

[LStevens]

Arda, the head tremors are side to side. The vet and I talked about Petite Mal seizures, etc. He was willing to put Grindle on phenobarbitol. However, once you start, you can't stop, so he opted for the Prednisone. Since Grindle's been on the Prozac, I've not seen any tremors. So, time will tell. Like you say, it's a puzzle. He was coming along really well. But the weekend of the fight, something physiological occured with him, and it kept escalating. I don't know if I did the right thing with the Prozac, but he's more peaceful . . . and so are the rest of us.

Linda

[Arda]

If it saves your sanity and the beagles hyde and his life, it's right. I'd rather see him on prozac than pred. Heather's boy turns inside out at the smell of beer. Even if it's Heather who had the beer. He is a fake shell. She did a great job with him. Only someone than reads these guys can see the change in him when Frank is here and had a few or Heather's dad comes in from having a few. The book we could write.

[Arda]

I'd like to see Bane out here some week end when Sarah and Joaquin and Heather were here so we had some experienced help to look at the problem. Could this be arranged?

[Cheri]

You mentioned that you have had his thyroid tested. So I'm making an assumption here that he had a very thorough exam by your vet? Was he given a neurological exam? You say he's getting worse and worse. If he was my dog, I would want to have tests done to rule out a brain tumor or any other physical cause for his behavior.

As far as trainers/behaviorists, have you read the thread just below this one "Monroe Area Training"? Baron'sMa seems happy with the Currey Family Pet Care. Go to their website and read Pat Currey's resume. I also worked with a trainer at Northfield Dog Training (northfielddogtraining.com) who has a lot of experience with reactive dogs. Her name is Terry Jacobus, and Ann Arbor may be farther than you want to go, but she does private lessons, too.

Good luck to you.