24 replies to this topic

[PKubek]

I'm a little freaked out right now - Grayson (nee "donoza") and Q (an older dalmation I've had for years) have been getting along well - but wrestling here and there seemingly playfully.

Just now Grayson went viscious- snarling and attacking Q and drew blood on Q - bit his ear from what I can see.

Not sure what to think or do!!!!

Paul

[dobeluvr]

I'm a little freaked out right now - Grayson (nee "donoza") and Q (an older dalmation I've had for years) have been getting along well - but wrestling here and there seemingly  playfully.

Just now Grayson went viscious- snarling and attacking Q and drew  blood on Q - bit his ear from what I can see.

Not sure what to think or do!!!!

Paul

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Can you give us a little more background? How long have you had Grayson? Were they wrestling at the time? Is one more dominant than the other? Are they males? Was there food involved? A toy? Did one play just a little too hard and hurt the other one by mistake? What was going on around them and with them at the time?

Jane

[PKubek]

Sure - have had Grayson about a month or so - as it started I figured they were playing again, as they have - but quickly escalated to a level of aggression I have never seen from Grayson.

Q, being the older dog is more alpha - but he isn't agressive at all.

They are both males.

No toys, no food around. While Grayson plays with toys - Q for some reason has never had any interest in them or even bones.

We were all upstairs watching tv as I worked, like normal - nothing unusual - seemed to come out of nowhere.

[dobeluvr]

Sure - have had Grayson about a month or so - as it started I figured they were playing again, as they have - but quickly escalated to a level of aggression I have never seen from Grayson.

Q, being the older dog is more alpha - but he isn't agressive at all.

They are both males.

No toys, no food around.  While Grayson plays with toys - Q for some reason has never had any interest in them or even bones.

We were all upstairs watching tv as I worked, like normal - nothing unusual - seemed to come out of nowhere.

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How old is Grayson?
Jane

[PKubek]

He's about 1.5

[dobeluvr]

He's about 1.5

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I have a link to an article that might help you to understand aggressive behavior in dogs a little better.


http://animal.discov...aggressive.html

It sounds like he is reaching an age where he is testing his boundaries as leader of the pack, but I'll wait and see what others have to say about it. I have females and have had a couple of instances like the one you describe here where the younger one tried to be alpha and the older one turned and reasserted her place in the pack. If your older male doesn't assert himself, he may lose his place as alpha. These are just my own personal observations. Joni or Arda or many of the other experienced male dog owners here may be able to help you better than I. But I would start by reading the article and see what you think.

Jane

[PKubek]

Thanks Jane!

[Cathy]

When they play is there anytype of growling? Is so, make them stop it immediatly.

When I first got two, I went with the advice: It does not matter who starts it ..your both in trouble!

Let them know : NO GROWLING AT ALL will be tollarated.

Sometimes the growling escalates into more agressive behavior. If they learn it will not be aloud, even in playful ways, it may help.


My dog and another female got into it last weekend but there was a puppy involved that started the females to protective aggression behavior.

I have to agree with Jane on this one. sounds like pac order. But I am no expert. Arda or Daisy will understand whats happening.

[jmnodwell]

When I first got two, I went with the advice: It does not matter who starts it ..your both in trouble!

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This I agree with. You can be watching them and never really know who is starting it since you cannot see into their minds. They both have to stop and both should receive equal "punishment" and I mean that to be whatever action you take after their altercation. If one goes into a crate the other should be equally confined... If toys are taken away, both should lose them for equal amounts of time...

When they play is there anytype of growling? Is so, make them stop it immediatly.

Let them know : NO GROWLING AT ALL will be tollarated.

Sometimes the growling escalates into more agressive behavior. If they learn it will not be aloud, even in playful ways, it may help.
My dog and another female got into it last weekend but there was a puppy involved that started the females to protective aggression behavior.

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This I no longer agree with... From the studying/reading I've done on aggression, the growl is the first indicator of potential problems to come. If you teach your dog that this is not acceptable, then you've taken away his first indication that trouble may be coming and he/she may go straight to "attack" mode instead of warning you first... I pay attention to growls from my dogs and watch them. If I feel the growling is not being heeded by the other dog... then I step in but I usually let them work it out... Harley and Bella got kinda nasty for a few minutes last night. I told them to "Leave It" and they broke it up and were fine. If they hadn't, the hose was already in my hand and they both would have gotten hose down (not usually an option in the house ) but... you know what I mean...

[jmnodwell]

His behavior may also be, in part, to the problems people all over are having with their dogs... I know we had some issues at the kennel, I've had people contact me directly... and I hear about this on several of my other discussion groups... this is a common problem right now... Having a vet check him out to be sure he is compeletely healthy is always an option (thyroid problems can also cause these types of behaviors)... and the pack/pecking order is also another explanation... so it could be one thing or a combination of many... Sorry there is no one easy answer!!!

One theory, is that nature is sending out "spring" signals extremely late this year. We all know the weather has been rather messed up lately... One other thing I learned about yesterday and this is a quote from the other group... "The moon is in a position that it will not be again in my lifetime. I
wonder if that is affecting them?

I believe the moon (phases) effects the dogs (and people) ordinarily. This
unusual orbit of the moon could be causing behavior changes."

Even some of the people on these lists have mentioned being much more prone to "flying off the handle" than usual and the little things that would never bother them are driving them crazy too!!!

[Jennymay]

I've heard that the moon's position can effect EVERYTHING..from people/dogs/animals, even plantation. I don't doubt it, to be honest with you.

[jmnodwell]

Paul, I hope you consider coming to our Clicker Training class on the 17th... We can discuss other ways of dealing with behavior problems with a training method that is positive based and fun for you and Grayson!!! and I know you had posted about training classes earlier... Besides I would love to meet the two of you (and Q)!!!

If you would like to get together to talk about some other options, PM me and we can set up a time!!! I believe we are probably not too far from each other seeing as we live in the same city!!!

[mihalik1413]

Paul,
Since nobody has asked how have they been acting/treating each other since the incident, I will: How have they been since? If things looking good, it could merely have been that one got the better part of the other in their play hence forth Grayson trying to set Q in his place. It also could have just been that Grayson is testing the waters with Q as well, he is approaching his teenage years and maybe testing the waters to see where he stands with Q.
A lot of good advice has been mentioned, you will definetely have to keep an eye on the two of them for a while. Remember Grayson is still a puppy and has to be taught what is and isn't acceptable behavior. As Joni has mentioned a clicker or some type of training class wouldn't be too bad of an idea for so many valuable reasons.

Best of luck to you in dealing with this matter,
Larry

[PKubek]

I've kept them apart since - waiting for them, and me, to cool down.

[dobeluvr]

I've kept them apart since - waiting for them, and me, to cool down.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Well, when you are all cool make sure to give us an update!

Jane

[Stef]

Paul,

I am one of those people who contacted Joni. Mine had a terrible fight several weeks ago and I was really upset. I know how you feel. I don't know if any of this is helpful - but this is what I've done/I'm doing:

I kept them separate and I left leashes on them in and out of the house for the first week after the fight so that I could control anything that might happen (without getting directly involved). I also re-enforced some rules that I had been slacking on. I am also careful not to disrupt the "pack" hierarchy. Wes gets fed first, treats first, walks first, etc since he is currently the leader. I also feed them in separate rooms to avoid any food issues and they are currently being walked separately.

They settled down and are fine now - we've had no further problems.

I hope you find an answer. Two dogs can be a real handfull sometimes.

[Javaluva]

Two dogs a handful...try four!!! I have three females and a male (male and female Dobes, a Weimaraner and a German Shorthaired Pointer). My two youngest females (the Dobe and Weim.) play very well together...rough? Yeah, but they have a great time and will only get too rough every once in a while. It's those times when one gets nipped a bit too hard and tears into the other for it. Whenever my dogs play together, I'm always there to supervise, just in case. I don't mind vocalization as I know the way my dogs "talk" and what it means, and if I hear sounds of frustration, shrieks of pain or growling indicative of protective behavior, I'm always there to step in and put an end to it before an altercation occurs. Same goes for bones/toys. As long as one is heeding the warning of another, provided the pecking order is being maintained, I let it play out. Growling at ME, however, over a bone, toy or anything is always a no-no and is followed with a reprimand from me (hand around muzzle followed by a firm "NO!") as it SHOULD be my place to be able to take toys and what have you at my will as I'm the alpha.

Even though my youngest two play well together, my Dobes don't. Gunner plays very well and is very gentle, but Belle, for some reason, is extremely aggressive with Gunner. Gunner never retaliates in response to her aggression, but I'm always there to step in should something happen. I do let Gunner and Belle play together, but when she starts to get unnecessarily aggressive toward him for no reason, I demand that she stop playing with him.

My GSP...she's a whole 'nother story! She stands on the sidelines, shivering and barking and taking pot shots at whoever gets close to her during a play session....she DOESN'T play nice! I have to keep her from playing as she instigates fights. But she's also 8 years old and doesn't want to be bothered by a bunch of "kids". She's typically all talk, but will not back down should someone decide to not tolerate her.

I watch my dog's body language and I listen to their voices CONSTANTLY. Maintaining peace is a must...but that doesn't mean that I don't have the occassional fight. My dogs KNOW that fighting is NOT an option, and will stop an argument if I approach...most of the time. I've only had a few times when I had to step in and pull two apart. Those involved take a time out for a while in a crate or outside (always seperated) until I decide they can interact again. I've never had lingering aggression after a fight. Everyone is able to get over things quickly and my household returns to normal.

One thing to keep in mind, too, is that dogs will play heavily off of your emotions. If you give them a reason to be on alert, or show nervousness when they're around other dogs, they see it as a sign that they should be on edge as well.

When you bring two dogs back together after a fight, watch they're reactions to one another VERY closely, but keep calm yourself so as not to give an indication that you expect there to be a problem. Dogs are masters at reading body language, even in people, as it's their main means of communication.

[Vicki_Wood]

I had problems with Gracie over the 4th weekend with behavior in her I had never seen before and I think a lot of it had to do with all the noise and people around, but also with how do I say this but with certain things happening with the earth that us mere mortal humans have no idea of. She has since settled down. Also my friend Lynn that adopted the two dobes (boy and girl) when I adopted Gracie has lots of problems with them fighting. The girl is very aggressive and the boy is a sweetheart but just gets fed up. I think she should be more aggressive with getting the girl's behavior in check, but it's not really for me to say. I have always been very careful with Gracie and Jewel (a very little Sheltie) just because Jewel could get seriously hurt. What I did in the beginning is use diversion tactics and just let her know its unacceptable behaviour. While I know it's a pack thing, it just cannot be allowed. Gracie & Lynn's female got into a fight once and it was something to behold! Don't EVER want to be involved in something like that again. I go so far as to look for the signs of her getting riled up like her hair standing on end and make her stop immediately. We don't live in a pack and I believe her life is good enough to somewhat squelch those pack instincts, albeit I do it kindly, but we are not in the wild. Don't know if this is right or wrong, but it does seem to work with her.

[mihalik1413]

Two dogs a handful...try four!!!      I have three females and a male (male and female Dobes, a Weimaraner and a German Shorthaired Pointer).  My two youngest females (the Dobe and Weim.) play very well together...rough?  Yeah, but they have a great time and will only get too rough every once in a while.  It's those times when one gets nipped a bit too hard and tears into the other for it.  Whenever my dogs play together, I'm always there to supervise, just in case.   I don't mind vocalization as I know the way my dogs "talk" and what it means, and if I hear sounds of frustration, shrieks of pain or growling indicative of protective behavior, I'm always there to step in and put an end to it before an altercation occurs.  Same goes for bones/toys.  As long as one is heeding the warning of another, provided the pecking order is being maintained, I let it play out.  Growling at ME, however, over a bone, toy or anything is always a no-no and is followed with a reprimand from me (hand around muzzle followed by a firm "NO!") as it SHOULD be my place to be able to take toys and what have you at my will as I'm the alpha.

Even though my youngest two play well together, my Dobes don't.  Gunner plays very well and is very gentle, but Belle, for some reason, is extremely aggressive with Gunner.  Gunner never retaliates in response to her aggression, but I'm always there to step in should something happen.  I do let Gunner and Belle play together, but when she starts to get unnecessarily aggressive toward him for no reason, I demand that she stop playing with him.

My GSP...she's a whole 'nother story!  She stands on the sidelines, shivering and barking and taking pot shots at whoever gets close to her during a play session....she DOESN'T play nice!  I have to keep her from playing as she instigates fights.  But she's also 8 years old and doesn't want to be bothered by a bunch of "kids".  She's typically all talk, but will not back down should someone decide to not tolerate her.

I watch my dog's body language and I listen to their voices CONSTANTLY.  Maintaining peace is a must...but that doesn't mean that I don't have the occassional fight.  My dogs KNOW that fighting is NOT an option, and will stop an argument if I approach...most of the time.   I've only had a few times when I had to step in and pull two apart.  Those involved take a time out for a while in a crate or outside (always seperated) until I decide they can interact again.  I've never had lingering aggression after a fight.  Everyone is able to get over things quickly and my household returns to normal.

One thing to keep in mind, too, is that dogs will play heavily off of your emotions.  If you give them a reason to be on alert, or show nervousness when they're around other dogs, they see it as a sign that they should be on edge as well.

When you bring two dogs back together after a fight, watch they're reactions to one another VERY closely, but keep calm yourself so as not to give an indication that you expect there to be a problem.  Dogs are masters at reading body language, even in people, as it's their main means of communication. 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Wow Mandi, put exactly as I feel and would have conveyed. I'm just glad you typed it and I didn't have too.

Larry

[PKubek]

Back after afternoon errands - and everyone is calmed down.

Brought them back together - and they seem to be fine with one another.

Still keeping a close eye though...