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Cesar or Victoria?


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#1 Cheri

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Posted 21 August 2010 - 07:21 AM

This was an article on my AOL news last evening. Some of you may have seen it already, but I'm posting it here, hoping to spark some lively discussion on the pros and cons of different training styles. Anyone want to weigh in?

http://www.pawnation...rather-have-tr/

Currently part of my treasured family and helping to make life fun and busy:

 

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Terra, the tall, gorgeous red Doberwoman

 

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#2 Nancy Robinson

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Posted 21 August 2010 - 11:57 AM

Well I will go with Cesar. I know there are other good trainers out there
and they all have their own ways, but I still will go with Cesar.
Nancy

"Until one has LOVED AN ANIMAL, part of
their SOUL REMAINS UNAWAKENED"

"
Yesterday is "HISTORY", Today is a "GIFT" and Tomorrow is a "MYSTERY"

"Always always try to be the" BEST YOU CAN BE"

Do not walk in front of me - I may not follow.
Do not walk behind me - I may not lead.
But walk beside me - and be my friend.

May you always have Love to Share
Health to Spare
and Friends who Care

Forever locked in my Heart

"I CARRY YOUR HEARTS IN MY HEART"........FOREVER

My "WHITE ANGEL".....Sweet sweet Schaudeh
4/17/1999...............5/14/2013
My "Bounty Hunter"
11/6/2000.......8/3/2009
My "Miks Von Rom Mateese"
7/6/1990..........4/4/1999

"I LOVED you yesterday, I LOVE you today, and I will LOVE you tomorrow'"
for you have never really left me

#3 Karen A

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Posted 21 August 2010 - 04:53 PM

I am a Caesar fan because he thinks like a dog does, and that's what dogs understand best. He uses methods that follow rules of pack life in nature. I don't have anything against rewarding with treats like Victoria does, but let's be realistic......mother dogs do not give their pups treats when they do right :innocent: . They learn by following the alphas who command respect. I think most dogs want to please their people except for a few breeds that have a more independent streak. I also believe that dogs like to be followers as opposed to having to make choices of their own. When we don't provide boundaries for them like not being allowed on furniture, eating out of the trash, jumping on guests, etc, they become nervous and often get in trouble which can lead to aggression problems because they don't know their place in the pack. My dogs will stand up to potential threats, follow me anywhere, and even jump in the water for me :Rose: ...which I now know is a big deal for a doberman. I don't have to entice them with food to do these things ever. They love to give their paw, sit, etc and do not need treats to do it. They like the attention and touch they get from it. They know they are an important part of our pack :doberman:

I think this is a great subject too!! It's interesting to see people's different points of view on training...especially with rescue dogs which may or may not come with some baggage. Thanks for posting it Cheri.
We give dogs the time we can spare, the space we can spare, and the love we can spare. And, in return, dogs give us their all. It's the best deal man has ever made.
-M. Acklam

#4 doberpagegirl

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Posted 21 August 2010 - 05:40 PM

I'm a Cesar fan. I do think they seem to deal with different situations a lot though, so it may not be a fair comparison. Victoria takes on basic training issues- jumping, barking, not listening, etc. Cesar takes on dogs with issues- aggression, fear, guarding issues, etc. I don't think the same basic formula will work for every dog. That is one of the things I love about Cesar. He does different approaches based on the dogs issues and behavior and responses. We tend to use a more Cesar-esque approach. I expect my dogs to listen because I said so, not because I have a treat. I want to be assured my dogs will give me my desired response in real life situations where I may not have treats handy. So, I don't use treats when we do obedience. I do however use treats galore in agility. Obedience is time to work, listen, and pay attention. Agility is fun to her, and she follows me because she loves it. So, again, I think different training methods work for different dogs in different situations.

It matters to the one you save.

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#5 ScarredWolf

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Posted 21 August 2010 - 06:34 PM

"Cesar takes on dogs with issues- aggression, fear, guarding issues, etc. I don't think the same basic formula will work for every dog. That is one of the things I love about Cesar. He does different approaches based on the dogs issues and behavior and responses."

I really like Cesar, and I agree, I don't think I have seen Victoria work with a dog that is as aggressive as the ones Cesar sometimes deals with. I don't agree with what the article said however.

"Experts quoted in the Time article say that this dominance style is based on an outdated study of wolves. That study suggested that the alpha-male wolf emerged by displaying aggression over other wolves and the idea is that because dogs are descended from wolves, humans need to display alpha behavior (or be the "pack leader," as Millan would say), dominating their pet dogs to get them to behave."

Cesar uses calm, assertive energy to show the dog that he is in control, not aggression or violence. Being the alpha is also about being confident and fair.

#6 Nancy Robinson

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Posted 21 August 2010 - 06:52 PM

I also think Cesar has taken on some dogs that other trainers may walk away from.

Cesar is the Best of the Best in my book.
Nancy

"Until one has LOVED AN ANIMAL, part of
their SOUL REMAINS UNAWAKENED"

"
Yesterday is "HISTORY", Today is a "GIFT" and Tomorrow is a "MYSTERY"

"Always always try to be the" BEST YOU CAN BE"

Do not walk in front of me - I may not follow.
Do not walk behind me - I may not lead.
But walk beside me - and be my friend.

May you always have Love to Share
Health to Spare
and Friends who Care

Forever locked in my Heart

"I CARRY YOUR HEARTS IN MY HEART"........FOREVER

My "WHITE ANGEL".....Sweet sweet Schaudeh
4/17/1999...............5/14/2013
My "Bounty Hunter"
11/6/2000.......8/3/2009
My "Miks Von Rom Mateese"
7/6/1990..........4/4/1999

"I LOVED you yesterday, I LOVE you today, and I will LOVE you tomorrow'"
for you have never really left me

#7 KellyB

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Posted 22 August 2010 - 06:04 PM

Cesar here!! I've trained a few places with the three I have. Dakota out in South Dakota at the local AKC club. The instructor I had was great, didn't accept owner's not being in control of their dogs. Here they seriously frown on prong collars, sweet talk the dogs mostly, treat, treat, treat, treat. Only one person would work with me an Myles when he started fear biting. When I brought the K-9 Officer to class to help me with Myles they frowned on his training. Which is a combination of corrections and treats, now that was with Myles. He trains differently with different cases and trainings of course. We had a trainer come to the clinic and ask if he could leave some buisness cards. Well one of our receptionist called about training her puppy. He wants to use a shock collar to train the puppy. Says he mainly uses the shock collar noise? To train them with, I told her to find a clicker training class.

Kelly
Dakota and Myles's Mom

#8 dobie sunshine

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Posted 23 August 2010 - 06:50 AM

I think it depends on the situation and the dog as to which training method is better.

#9 Arda

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Posted 23 August 2010 - 07:15 AM

Persall, Caesar, Koehler, Victoria, Arda, Whitecel, and whoever else. The more you know about each method, the better you can handle any situation or any dog. Isacck can take NO pressure from anyone. Chaos can be abused to an inch degree of his life. Every dog has a different method but in the end, they all learn. Name your poison. And use what works.
A chain is only as strong as it's weakest link.

#10 brownsmom

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Posted 23 August 2010 - 09:46 AM

You forgot Maddy!

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#11 Arda

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Posted 23 August 2010 - 02:23 PM

Darn, I'm sorry. But all of you know her.
A chain is only as strong as it's weakest link.

#12 doberpagegirl

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Posted 23 August 2010 - 03:11 PM

I will vote for Maddie & Arda over any other trainer. My kids owe you two their lives, literally.

It matters to the one you save.

SCD's Out on Bail CGC (December 17, 2008- April 27, 2018)
SCD's Stone Soup
SCD's Sixpence in my shoe
SCD's Hurricane Alley CGC (August 12, 2007- September 11, 2014)
SCD's Easter Buddy CGC (August 12, 2007- July 5, 2012)
Page, Princess Extraordinaire - (July 9, 2000- July 31, 2007)


#13 Arda

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Posted 23 August 2010 - 06:30 PM

We humbly thank you.
A chain is only as strong as it's weakest link.

#14 Cheri

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Posted 24 August 2010 - 08:48 PM

I confess I enjoy watching both shows, when I can catch them. They use different approaches, but they both seem to be pretty effective (at least with the cases they show us on TV!). As others have pointed out, dogs are individuals and there is no one-size-fits-all training method. So I try to learn as much as I can from a variety of sources, well-known trainers like these two, books I have read, and wonderful instructors I have had, and then try to figure out what works best for each of my dogs.

Currently part of my treasured family and helping to make life fun and busy:

 

Hunter, the chocolate Labradeagle (or Beaglador)

Terra, the tall, gorgeous red Doberwoman

 

Waiting at the Bridge and forever in my heart...... Igor, Max, Savanna, Logan, and Tasha


#15 Nancy Robinson

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Posted 25 August 2010 - 05:39 PM

Very true Cheri, I had to do different techniques with Schaudeh, her being
abused she showed signs of aggression and hated men. :doberman: She turned out to be
one SNOW WHITE ANGEL, :Rose: she is so sweet, now loves men, aggression
gone out of sight. :innocent:
Nancy

"Until one has LOVED AN ANIMAL, part of
their SOUL REMAINS UNAWAKENED"

"
Yesterday is "HISTORY", Today is a "GIFT" and Tomorrow is a "MYSTERY"

"Always always try to be the" BEST YOU CAN BE"

Do not walk in front of me - I may not follow.
Do not walk behind me - I may not lead.
But walk beside me - and be my friend.

May you always have Love to Share
Health to Spare
and Friends who Care

Forever locked in my Heart

"I CARRY YOUR HEARTS IN MY HEART"........FOREVER

My "WHITE ANGEL".....Sweet sweet Schaudeh
4/17/1999...............5/14/2013
My "Bounty Hunter"
11/6/2000.......8/3/2009
My "Miks Von Rom Mateese"
7/6/1990..........4/4/1999

"I LOVED you yesterday, I LOVE you today, and I will LOVE you tomorrow'"
for you have never really left me

#16 Joaquin

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Posted 26 August 2010 - 02:59 AM

Yes I think it's hard to compare them because they really specialize in different areas. Victoria's issues are commonly like housebreaking, barking, jumping up and Cesar's issues are more like neurotic compulsions, severe aggression or fear, and "red zone" cases. Both trainers are ultimately taking an alpha position that does not negotiate for position in the pack and lays out rules and boundaries that must be followed.

#17 Melinda

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Posted 26 August 2010 - 06:37 AM

I am not blessed with the modern luxery of cable, I live in the boonies, so I don't know either one of these trainers. But I beleive it is necessary that a dog knows you are the head of the pack at all times. When my daughter got her first Doberman puppy, I adviced her to tell her, don't ask her, until she understood that Jodi was in control. I think there needs to be a very good balance of love and discipline. Neither works without the other. I train my horses and my dogs, and raised my kids on this theory. So far, I have had a pretty good amount of success.

I like to watch Sadie, the Matriarch of the dogs here. She lays with the other two, she will cuddle and and she will play, but she maintains a higher level at all times. When the rough play gets out of hand, she speaks, and the other two settle down. I think dogs look for the "master", and when there isn't one, they step into the role.
"Happiness is best pursued at a full gallop."




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