42 replies to this topic

[Arda]

Thanks, Cheri. It's real hard to visualize what he is describing. I can't believe he hasn't laid into Bella yet with all he is doing out there. Drawing from my problems of Frodo and the girls. There is not a single female out here that he has not bitten and I mean bad and always on their heads. The same dogs he goes in and out with all the time. I know a lot of the Lornich dogs have big problems and we have had them in here as all of you know. But I can't put all of this on the breeding. Why hasn't he tied into Bella?

[brownsmom]

I am convinced that he isn't wired right.

In my opinion (not an expert, just having seen them over the last few years) this seems to be a hallmark of Lornich dogs. It is hard to put your finger on just what is wrong, but something just isn't "right."

I think somewhere her breeding design went terribly wrong, and the dogs are paying for it.

Again, my opinion - the Z factor produces a "different" temperment. I know there are people who have and love the best, smartest, kindest, calmest white Dobes (and Arda, I am NOT talking about your little devils...) who won't agree with me, but in general, with my limited experience, they are not the SAME temperment as Dobes without the Z factor. For whatever my opinion is worth. I have heard of other people using human anti-anxiety drugs with good effect on their dogs. I wish you luck with yours!

[LStevens]

Heather, you made me think of something I had forgotten. Grindle is a "Z" dog, even though he is red - not white. Also, I've had his Thyroid tested multiple times, and it's all within normal limits.

RednFawn, I know how it feels to think you have failed your dog, but you haven't. It's just a matter of figuring out how to manage the problem. For me, medication has made all the difference. When it comes to attacking other dogs - and mine had a history of biting people besides other dogs - they have now become a huge liability for everyone. They can never be trusted, must always be watched. It's an enormous responsibility. The only alternative is to put them down. I'm not ready to do that, and I don't think you are either. Arda, with all her experience, can guide you in this regard. Don't give up hope.

Linda

[Arda]

I want all of you to try to understand the "Z" factor dogs. And I would not know the right technical wording on this BUT what I do know is that 40 years ago, we never put 2 males together ever. They were down right nasty. The Dobermann breed was only 60 years old. The base of the breed was very small. In 1975 the whites were introduced. Very close inbreeding. Narrow base again. These "Z" factored dogs are right now only 35 years old. They are and act like the Dobermanns of 40 years ago. Very protective and very quickly aggressive. Today we have drugs and it does give them a life. 40 years ago we just kept them apart all the time. The problems of bad health, I have not seen. I have had 4 whites that lived to be 13 years of age and then lost them to DCM and Ghost was cancer. Oscar, Diamond, Saphy, Pistol, and Jonah have no health issues. Then you have the fact the Lornich kennels were using their own studs to sire the litters that may be the half brothers to the female dog. Making the problems even bigger. A good breeder will look at the female dog and pick out her faults and then go out and hire a stud that can overcompensate those faults. Producing a good quality litter. And so it goes.........Cathie Renee(although not a breeder) can explain it better but that's the way it is.

[LStevens]

Here are two links about anti-depressants and anti-anxiety drugs.

http://www.helpguide...s_treatment.htm

http://pdrhealth.com...p;contentId=291

I think your vet is prescribing Klonopin a/k/a Clonazepam. This slows down the central nervous system, whereas Prozac is a serotonin uptake inhibitor.

[Joaquin]

I know that this dog has to be in there somewhere. This was last fall at teh Warren dog park - the ONLY day that he has been there without issue. We were the only ones there at first and then this woman cam in with her GSHP (notice the color similarity) and the played great for over an hour. Unfortunatly, this was the only positive time he has been around an "outside" dog in the last 2 years.

It sounds like your dog, outside of any genetic predisposition, thinks it has to be the boss in unknown situations like when meeting new dogs. In nature the mother dog uses consequences more than positives to teach manners. If the dog was misbehaving the mother dog would first growl and if not paid attention to would go the dog and grab them by the scruff of the neck and give them a shake to let them know they better stop screwin around. A good training collar (chain), and a leash will play the role of the mother dog. Below is advice that I offered someone else to help show them the state of mind of an alpha pack leader and effective consequences for unwanted behavior. This correction was taught to us (Doberpagegirl) when our girl Alley would lunge at strange dogs. Maddy, this great trainer, before we paid a dime brought her dog over to our house and walked her up and down our sidewalk until Alley would growl or lunge at her dog through the fence. Then she would instruct me to give the following correction. After two really good corrections, in which Alley sounded like I was killing her, Alley wanted nothing to do with the strange dog and she still loved us and her spirit was not crushed. Equate this to having a rope around your waist and having someone pull, it just jolts you and takes you off balance. You want the dog to think you can cause earth quakes when you want to. At the time of this quote we would never dream of letting Alley off leash with strange dogs, now she runs free at Second Chance Dobes as well as in her dog agility class and is well behaved.

Our Buddy(Lefty) also has an issue with growling both at Alley and us sometimes. Maddy, the trainer Arda recommended, says this SHOULD NEVER BE ALLOWED! (lol and that's how she says it too). She says things like this is a challenge to you and you HAVE to win EVERY single challenge given to you. She says an alpha would never tolerate an inferior packmate to do this to them and neither should you.

The proper correction according to her is to have a training collar on them and a leash. When they growl or uncontrollably bark....grab the leash about a foot up from the collar and bring your hands together like you are holding a baseball bat so they are touching each other (provides more power).....then while very loudly verbally correcting them, shake the bejesus out of them for 10 to 30 seconds depending on the serverity of the offense. Short for just growling but stopping when corrected and 30 seconds or more for showing teeth, snapping or continuing to keep it up through corrections.

Maddy said though to make sure that after you apply a correction (and they have stopped the no-no and are looking at you) to count to 2 and then praise them excitedly. Seems weird to praise them after the offense but it's dog sense we are trying to make here not human sense. The dog will see it like this.....I was barking or growling.......my master shook the heck out of me......I stopped and looked at them........I got praise..........oh I bet they didn't want me doing that.

Maddy said if they don't stop after the shaking then do it harder and longer until they do, count to 2 and then praise. Corrections of any type should always be followed by praise or else they don't correlate the correction to the deed until they stop and are praised for doing so.

Just thought I'd share the advice given to us. Good luck.

[CathieRenee]

I want all of you to try to understand the "Z" factor dogs. And I would not know the right technical wording on this BUT what I do know is that 40 years ago, we never put 2 males together ever. They were down right nasty. The Dobermann breed was only 60 years old. The base of the breed was very small. In 1975 the whites were introduced. Very close inbreeding. Narrow base again. These "Z" factored dogs are right now only 35 years old. They are and act like the Dobermanns of 40 years ago. Very protective and very quickly aggressive. Today we have drugs and it does give them a life. 40 years ago we just kept them apart all the time. The problems of bad health, I have not seen. I have had 4 whites that lived to be 13 years of age and then lost them to DCM and Ghost was cancer. Oscar, Diamond, Saphy, Pistol, and Jonah have no health issues. Then you have the fact the Lornich kennels were using their own studs to sire the litters that may be the half brothers to the female dog. Making the problems even bigger. A good breeder will look at the female dog and pick out her faults and then go out and hire a stud that can overcompensate those faults. Producing a good quality litter. And so it goes.........Cathie Renee(although not a breeder) can explain it better but that's the way it is.

Arda, I thought you explained it very well.

[jmnodwell]

I'd like to see Bane out here some week end when Sarah and Joaquin and Heather were here so we had some experienced help to look at the problem. Could this be arranged?

I'll be in Auburn Hills on Monday 5/18 and could swing over after work and dinner if that's not too late... Warren isn't that far... I think you should still get him out to SCD but an extra set of eyes can't hurt either...

[jmnodwell]

Thanks jmnodwell, but you don't have to come all the way here from TX just for my dog, lol.

No, I'm in town for two weeks... the drive is already done... I'll be working out of our Auburn Hills office on Monday... so not so much on the drive, just AH to Warren...

Edited by jmnodwell, 13 May 2009 - 11:41 AM.

[doberpagegirl]

What constitutes a "good training collar (chain)? Is this the old-school chokers?

That is what my trainer recommended, the old fashioned "choke". The collar, used correctly, should NEVER choke your dog. Our trainer used the same methods they use for training guide dogs for the blind. It is called the Koehler method. Some people think it is old fashioned, and they prefer only positive training. My dogs needed more than that. They needed rehab. My boy was an abuse case, so he had a lot of issues. Joaquin and I will try to find a day we can meet you down at SCD with Arda. Weekends are hard for me to get off, but I'll see what I can do. You have given your boy a lot more effort than so many people do. Don't feel like you are failing him, you are trying, take some credit for that. If every dobe owner was trying as hard as you, there'd be a lot less for us to rescue.

[DeeDeeWedd]

I had the same issue arise with my foster, I found an aggression "specialist" and she said that if I took him in for daycare she would work with him everyday. He spent most if his time in a crate (he spent most of his 5yrs of life in a crate - lornich rescue april 2008) and found out that yea she only comes in and out of the facility and rarely worked with him herself. The staff would work with him (so I was told). Wonder if it is the same one.

[Joaquin]

Am I blowing this out of proportion??? Any thoughts?

I need someone to work with him in a controlled enviroment, and I think that this place is the right one, I just wish that the owner was the one that would be working with him, not some delegate.

What to do?!

I'm not familiar with this setup of training at all. What happens with our classes that we had and are taking right now is each week we take our dog and we learn how to do our "homework" for the week. The instructor will demonstrate how to teach heal for instance, the class will practice several times during class so she can correct anything we might be doing wrong and then we go home. Then every day up until the next class the routine is, crate the dog for 2 hours to create boredom and a willingness to work. Work on the weeks "homework" for at least 30 minutes, then release the dog for some free time just between you and the dog. After 20 minutes of free time back in the crate they go for 30 minutes for their reflection time where they "think" about what just happened during training. After 30 minutes let them out and business as normal.

This happens everyday, then next week the instructor will build upon what we have just taught the week before. So after heal and automatically sitting when you stop walking, then the instructor demonstrates how to teach a sit-stay. Then again everyone will practice while the instructor watches so we are teaching it properly and again we go home with "homework".

So class really is only everyone healing in a big oval pattern while mixing in stays, turns, recalls etc. and then we'll stop while the instructor teaches or demonstrates something and then we get assigned the homework which is what we will work on for the 30 minutes everyday. So the class just really teaches us humans what to do with our dogs everyday until the next class. Not so much the instructor taking our dogs individually and working with them. Now this was how it was when our trainer came to our house to work on Buddy and Alley's prey drive(would only take gas money) but not for obedience class though.

Training your dog yourself also helps reinforce that alpha/subordinate relationship and also helps with bonding with your dog. Plus once you've been through one of these classes you keep the knowledge and can use it on other dogs.

Not sure where you are located at or how far you are willing to drive but these classes are only once a week and run for 8 weeks and cost $80 or $10/week at Swan Valley High School here in Saginaw (989-921-2473). Maddy Berkobien is who we originally took classes with but right now she is taking time off because one of her dogs is competing and is currently ranked 20th in the country. In her absence is Diane Thayer who taught Maddy originally and is teaching classes now and they are both great. And I can say with all certainty that if you take one of these classes and follow through everyday with the homework doing it exactly how they teach you, you will have a well-trained dog at the end.

[Bumpette]

That is basically how our training classes are too. Our instructor informed us at the first class, that we humans are actually the students. She is teaching us how to train our dogs. My way of thinking is if someone else trains your dog for you, your dog will be a well trained dog for them, but not for you. Just like horse training. A trainer can train a horse to do everything perfectly, but if the rider isn't trained, the horse is clueless as to what the rider wants.

[Joaquin]

Well then yes, if socialization is what he needs then lots of different people, places and animals is what he should get. I'm not sure any type of formal training is needed to simply socialize a dog, as long as they are able to break up a dog fight if need be or preferably prevent it.

[Bumpette]

I agree with Joaquin, as long as her staff can prevent a dog fight, or break one up, if need be, that should be fine. I'm wondering about the waivers that you signed. Did they just release the staff from liability, if something should happen, so you couldn't sue them? Or are you released from liability as well? Can the staff sue you if Bane bites one of them? Can other dog owners sue you if Bane starts a dog fight, and one of their dogs gets hurt? Can you sue other dog owners if their dog starts a fight, and Bane gets hurt? If everyone is released from liability, and her staff is competent in dog handling, it could be a big step in socializing Bane.

[Cheri]

Sorry, I have elected to delete my post regarding the hold harmless agreement. Didn't want it to be misconstrued as me giving out insurance advice. I will just say that I believe a plain reading of the hold harmless language RednFawn has posted is saying the facility is the one being released from liability, not RednFawn, and if he has any concerns, he should speak to a licensed insurance agent.

Edited by Cheri, 05 June 2009 - 07:00 PM.

[doberpagegirl]

Personally, I might not have signed that. It seems like Cheri is right, all liability falls on you. I'd be very cautious.

[Arda]

Any more everyone has to cover their own bum. It is necessary in this world.

[baron'sma]

Personally, I might not have signed that. It seems like Cheri is right, all liability falls on you. I'd be very cautious.

*RED FLAG RED FLAG RED FLAG* made me nervous just reading it, seems very sketchy to me

Edited by baron'sma, 05 June 2009 - 08:35 PM.

[Cheri]

I wish I would have seen it before you deleted it, lol.

Thanks for the advice!

Dave, I tried to PM you, wrote a nice long message, then the site signed me off just as I was sending it I have some other things I have to do now, but I'll try again later!