65 replies to this topic

[doberpagegirl]

Well this morning Alley and Buddy got in a little tiff. Buddy growled first, but Alley was approaching him and I really couldn't tell what it was over. I am thinking they are just trying to decide who's boss. I had leashes on them both, so I seperated them for about 10 minutes til we all calmed down. Which was not the easiest since I am not really as strong as they are, and Alley managed to slip her head out of her collar and then I was dragging Buddy trying to get a hold of her. Buddy was willing to give up as soon as I stepped in but Alley was another story. After they were calm I brought them back together and made them both lay quietly on the floor for a few minutes while I stood there. Which also took some doing to convince them I meant stay down. Then we went for a 20 minute walk and they seem fine now. I would have walked them longer but Alley has a cut on her foot. My question is are they just determining their place in the pack? There was no blood and they honestly didn't have a chance to let it escalate. Should I expect more of this until they settle in and decide on their pack order? Is there anything else I should do with this? Last night they played together fine jumping on each other, mouth biting/kissing, etc. We were supervising though and didn't let them get too excited then either. I saw on another post Arda said don't feed them, so I guess they are skipping lunch. This is the first time I have had two dogs and I know the most important thing is to stay calm and remind them I am the alpha, but any advice would be appreciated. Thanks
Sarah

[CAB]

My question is are they just determining their place in the pack?

I do believe that they are. I am by no means an expert, but when I added a second dog (Valentino), he and Cocoa had one major battle where he drew blood. It did take some time though for Val to understand his place in our pack. Time and patience were key. It's all good now. They absolutely adore one another.

Edited by CAB, 14 August 2007 - 12:09 PM.

[Kari]

No toys , no bones and no furniture , treats that can be eaten in front of you . You are the leader of the pack , yell at them to knock it off when you hear a growl or see the hair on their neck stand . Let them know you mean business . They have to know your in charge . Crates are a great place to cool off . Don't climb in between if something starts , use a broom and swat them with it . It will only hurt their feeling . Call any of us if you have problems any time !!! I'm PMing you my cell number . Kari

[Annie Moon]

I'm no expert, I just know what works for my dogs.... a squirt bottle, and firm NO.
My dobergirl thinks she is the second in command here, and must discipline the other dogs
for who knows what reason.
She hates the squirt bottle... Now I just look at it, and say NO.
I rarely have to pick it up.
Isn't Allie older than Buddy? Maybe she is trying to teach him manners, or
she is being a .... um, female dog.

[Stacie]

I totally agree with you Kari! I know that dogs feel the need to be in charge but if you let them be with one another and don't let them both know you are in charge you will have problems later down the road. I do let my dogs on the furniture - but I also make it a point to make them get off of it evreyday when I tell them to - actually a few times a day - so they know I am the boss. They also know that when I lay down in bed to watch tv (if I get to do that anymore) that they get to lay with me till it's my sons bedtime - then it's nighty-night for them too! You have to be firm with them - Maggs can tell by the tone in my voice that I mean it and he moves it! And yeah, don't get involved in it - I used to use a water bottle on stream (with my boxer) - don't know why it got his attention and made him run in the opposite direction but it did! Neither one of my dogs likes the hose (found that out when watering flowers - they run from it and I have never squirted them with it) so I know the squirt bottle will work!! Good Luck and don't be afraid to call anyone for help - I have found that everyone here are exceptionally helpful and friendly!

[Vicki_Wood]

I haven't had any problems with Coby and Gracie; probably because Coby is so submissive. I have had to yell at Gracie a couple of times outside as I felt she was too aggressive in play with him. Now my deceased Blue was another story. Got him when he was quite old and he was definitely aggressive towards her although he absolutely adored her; it usually was over her getting attention from me. He bit her one too many times and got into trouble big time with me. Believe me you can teach an old dog new tricks. I think what truly settled him down though was she was usually submissive to him and would leave the room. Finally, one day he pulled his antics with her and she went into the bedroom; before I could even move (this was all in a matter of seconds), this flaming mad red girl came flying out of the bedroom and nailed him. Blue and I both jumped as she flew out of the bedroom and there was never a problem again.

[doberpagegirl]

Thanks for all the advice. Buddy and Alley are doing good, no more issues so far. I took them out to play this morning and they played together fine for about 5 mins and then they started to get a little wild so I made them stop and lay down for a minute. They have had no problems. I have to admit I let them on the furniture, but I have been making them both get off and lay on the floor at random times. We don't mind them on the couch as long as it doesn't cause issues and as long as they learn to get down when people want the couch. I probably should have made them wait longer to get on there, until they were more familiar and comfortable here. Well, lesson learned and no harm done. The squirt bottle is a good idea. That is how my mom got her cat to stop trying to climb the screen on her sliding glass patio door. I have one ready but haven't had to use it yet. Thanks again for all the advice I'll keep everyone updated on how it goes.

Sarah

[doberpagegirl]

Alright, Alley and Buddy got into another fight and this one was a real fight. Both my dogs are bleeding. Buddy's neck got bit and Alley's face. Not serious bites, but still I don't know what to do. They do not fight all the time, but Buddy does growl at her quite a bit, and we have to get after him. This time we were outside and a loose chiuaiua(sp) went walking by the fence. Both my dogs started to growl (at the chi I thought) then in a second they are a jumping rolling ball of fur with spit flying. I grab them both and Buddy is still trying to fight, so I put him in and leave Alley in the yard. I look down and there is blood on my hands and I can see Alley has blood on her face. Buddy bit her less than an inch from her eye. So I check her out and there is a big scratch on her belly too. Then I go in and check Buddy, and he is bleeding on his neck from her biting him. I really don't know what to do. We stopped letting them on the furniture after the first fight. They don't get bones or toys, it doesn't seem like they are fighting over something, especially this time. And when I bring her in he starts licking her face. Well they are both locked up now because really my nerves are shot and it is only 11:00!!! I had just fed them lunch and was taking them out after. We don't know what is setting this off and I really want them to learn to get along, the rest of the time they seem to get along very well. I can't have my dogs ripping into each other like this. One of them could really get hurt. How am I ever going to trust them to be alone? I also don't want to give up on them. There has to be a way I can fix this. The hose/bottle works for breaking it up, but how do I get this to stop happening? In the time it took me to break it up they already had each other bleeding. Do you think an obedience class might help as it would provide more socialization? If I did do that though, what if they bit someone else's dog? Please any ideas? Also, both these fights have been when I was home alone, they act fine when Joaquin is here, which just makes me angrier when they do fight!!

Edited by doberpagegirl, 21 August 2007 - 10:48 AM.

[CAB]

This time we were outside and a loose chiuaiua(sp) went walking by the fence. Both my dogs started to growl (at the chi I thought) then in a second they are a jumping rolling ball of fur with spit flying.

Isn't this redirected aggression? I dunno, but I thought I may have read about it somewhere on this board.

[doberpagegirl]

It is almost to the point where I don't even want to let them play because I worry they will freak out on each other.

[duboisdobes]

I have to watch my older one an her body language very carefully. She will pin Ellen down if Ellen is barking at someone walking by the house....almost to say that's my job you zip it. Luckily Ellen is very submissive and she just yelps like Jewels is killing her. No blood, bitting, or anything she is just scared. If I say "off" Jewels will leave her alone. I think training would be good for you and them. Like I said I am lucky and even when Jewels acts agressive I don't have to worry about a full blow fight.

We went to a local trainer that I decided wasn't for me. He has a lot of K-9 and milatary experience and I felt like he was a little over the top for the problems I have, but I have friends that went to him for other behavior and pack problems and he helped them. You sound like me - my dogs know that I am a push over and will try most anything if thier Dad isn't around. The trainer told me I was the problem...not fun to hear, but it's true. Not sure where you are located, but try to find a good trainer.

[Kzoo]

Take this constructive criticism........NO FURNITURE...............I learned this the hard way. When Tessa was NOT allowed on my furniture anymore, we haven't had a problem since. She thought she was as HIGH as ME in the pack, and she wasn't. I am not sure if this is what is happening or not. They do not look at you as the LEADER.
Good LUCK! She is NOT allowed on the furniture for special days or anything, never, ever, ever for nothing!
Melissa K.

[Heather M]

Our dog Tess has lot of "issues" and will try to provoke our very mild mannered shep mix while she is resting. Our thrid dog would then attack Tess. She also will go after our two dogs if they get excited about something (like seeing a pack of little dogs). I was always having to break up fights and clean up minor blood splatters. We finallly started putting a muzzle on Tess when she is out of her crate. This made breaking up fights a lot easier for me. She now has to go to her crate the very first sign of aggression or inappropriate behavior (All body language) before any growls happen. Our incidents are now much less frequent since I took a "zero tolerance" position. She is out of her crate more and requiring the muzzle less. Good luck, I know how stressful and demoralizing it can be!

[Vicki_Wood]

It sounds to me like they get over sensitized, like seeing a small dog they can't get at so therefore they go at each other. Plus neither one of them are submissive. I am no expert dog trainer believe me, but really the two of them are still new with each other and you. Obviously, a large male dominate figure as your husband is has an effect on them. For a while I think I would muzzle both of them when they are together so no one gets hurt, and some serious discipline with even an inkling of hostility. Watch their body language. Staring one or the another down as they will do is signs of agression, their hackles up or stiffness is another sign. You might want to find a dog trainer especially one that is familiar with dobes and hopefully Arda will see this and I know she will know exactly what to do. Maybe if you don't see anything on this board from her, you could give her a call. I think in time they will settle down, plus again serious discipline.

[Arda]

I am no expert but I do have 17 in my home. Zero Tolerance. They behave or I come unglued. NO FURNITURE at any time. NO MEAL for the misbehaving. NO TREATS when they break up. I SAID NO! And brother, they know I mean it. I sound like a crazy person when I go after one of them. I tell the girls that train with me, Go at them like you just caught your husband in bed with another woman. You have to be as mad as that to get the point across. They can smell "Mad". They can smell fear also. I carry a cane and I will use it if I have to. Dog fights seem to escalate if they are not stopped dead. Evaluate the situation after they are separated. Your dogs are trying to decide which is the leader. The female is always the boss. A male should never attack a female. This is the way of dogs. There is no time for a dog to be on the furniture or in your bed. It puts the dog at the same level as the human in the dogs mind. Then he learns he is your equal and he will not behave for you. The husband comes in and the dog minds because he doesn't let him in your bed. No matter what you think, 4,000 Dobes tell me it's the truth. There is always an exception to the rule but, what makes you think your dog is the exception? Tough Love and it works with dogs and kids. It doesn't make them love you less. It's respect and love with a firm hand.

[Joaquin]

Hi All,

This is Joaquin, Sarah's (Doberpagegirl) boyfriend. Just a quick question for now, we are about to head up and get some muzzles for the dogs to wear while I am not home and while Sarah is working on her "freak out" routine to establish her dominance. Should we just muzzle both dogs right now? We are unsure who is coaxing the other into these spats but as Arda says it's unnatural for males to attack females unprovoked.

Thanx in advance!

Joaquin

[Arda]

I would muzzle both for right now. Read them like they are children. They will show you which is the problem. She's probably starting it and Lefty doesn't know that he is surpose to back down. I used to put them and Shivers, Moose, Tiny, Buggers, Max, and Pachino all out together. Whoever got into it in the yard got the broom. If it was three in the pile, they all got the broom. Lefty would come to heal position and sqirm around my leg like he was saying "I'm sorry". So he knows what I meant. But I think they are trying to decide who is the boss and it has to be you and not them. Get the nylon muzzles that go up the side of the face and around the neck. Put a flat collar on them and put the ends of the muzzle around the flat collar so they can't pull them off. When you think it's tight enough tighten it a little more. To start with you want it very tight. Remember this "the Dobermann was designed to be uncontainable". They have never made a muzzle, collar, or pinch to hold all Dobermanns. If you look at the head of the dog you will see the wedges that make up the head. Once the nose is through an opening, the rest of the dog follows. Therefore it is a tough job to hold one of the little darlings when they have a goal in their head. I will try to show all of you what I mean if you get down here for the reunion and you remind me. I will be the fat old woman sleeping in a chair somewhere.

[Stacie]

Wow, I learn something new every day here. I will say that Magnum seemed like a wuss when it came to Lilo jumping all over him and what looked to be like her dominating but when you think about it, it makes sense that they wouldn't fight back unless provoked. Lions are the same way!

[Diana]

I would muzzle both for right now. Read them like they are children. They will show you which is the problem. She's probably starting it and Lefty doesn't know that he is surpose to back down. I used to put them and Shivers, Moose, Tiny, Buggers, Max, and Pachino all out together. Whoever got into it in the yard got the broom. If it was three in the pile, they all got the broom. Lefty would come to heal position and sqirm around my leg like he was saying "I'm sorry". So he knows what I meant. But I think they are trying to decide who is the boss and it has to be you and not them. Get the nylon muzzles that go up the side of the face and around the neck. Put a flat collar on them and put the ends of the muzzle around the flat collar so they can't pull them off. When you think it's tight enough tighten it a little more. To start with you want it very tight. Remember this "the Dobermann was designed to be uncontainable". They have never made a muzzle, collar, or pinch to hold all Dobermanns. If you look at the head of the dog you will see the wedges that make up the head. Once the nose is through an opening, the rest of the dog follows. Therefore it is a tough job to hold one of the little darlings when they have a goal in their head. I will try to show all of you what I mean if you get down here for the reunion and you remind me. I will be the fat old woman sleeping in a chair somewhere.

A very wise women speaks. Great info and food for thought. I am sure you have seen it all and dealt with it all and made it work. I alway figure you have to be at least 10 steps ahead of the Dobe to try and stay ahead of what they are going to do next, in other words, never a dull moment.

[Joaquin]

I would muzzle both for right now. Read them like they are children. They will show you which is the problem. She's probably starting it and Lefty doesn't know that he is surpose to back down.

So we should promote Alley being more dominant than Lefty? If so, should we be feeding her first and letting her go out the door first as well? Anything else we should be doing to show him he should be backing down to her?

Get the nylon muzzles that go up the side of the face and around the neck. Put a flat collar on them and put the ends of the muzzle around the flat collar so they can't pull them off. When you think it's tight enough tighten it a little more. To start with you want it very tight.

What is the maximum amount of time we will want to have them in a muzzle?

I will try to show all of you what I mean if you get down here for the reunion and you remind me. I will be the fat old woman sleeping in a chair somewhere.

Well anything shy of our 'other' vehicle going out on us couldn't keep us away! Be prepared to have your brain picked. (until you bring out the broom)