29 replies to this topic

[Vicki]

Help! Boomer's frustration escalation is finally starting to frustrate me.

We've had him for a little over two months so he's really settling in and getting comfortable. All kinds of interesting traits starting to appear, constant counter surfing, trash can dumping, paint ball eating, etc... What I would call Domineering behavior with me is really starting to wear me out. When he wants my complete attention he'll start a barkin'. The barking quickly escalates into what you'd say is definitely a red zone stage. I had been using the non-reactive approach, walk away, ignore bad behavior, reward good behavior. The frequency continued to increase. Then, he's added in the jumping and boxing. It could be along with the barking or seperate on it's own. He jumps up and boxes (he's as tall as me on hind feet - so I get clawed in the face or scratches down the back if I'm quick enough to turn). Walking away doesn't help on this one either - it's the congo line then (pretty hillarious to watch I'm sure). He just walks with me and starts boxing at me again when I stop. Given the increase in frequency and duration of the actions with the non-reactive approach I decided to give the correcting a try within the last two weeks. Big mistake. To say he sees red when scolded and a tug on the slip collar & leash is an understatement. Poking, snapping and biting has happened. In one incident of his mouthing off and snapping I took a hold of his collar and just held him until he calmed down and submitted. Not one minute after letting go he went into my bedroom and urinated on my bedding. I've stopped the correction method. Started praising good behavior again and it has calmed him down a little. I've had him in obedience classes for 3 weeks now. Each session is worse. I get the 40 foot birth around us every time we meet at class - no one will come near us. The lunging, constant barking, and last week urinating even has the instructor at the point he recommended I bring a kong full of peanut butter and treats next time to keep him busy. Uh, I can divert his attention with food at home - I need to learn to curb his behavior. He offered me little advice after class other than to inform me he's frustrated. Obviously. That's clear. He walks into class and sees the other dogs and gets all wound up to play. When I don't let him play with them and they don't want to play with him he's beside himself. I have tried wearing him out before class by running a 5 k with him a half hour before it starts - doesn't slow him down. Did I mention he decided to lunge at one of the instructors helpers a 70+ year old man barking ferociously with full intent of taking him down? I'm guessing a play mate would help direct his energy elsewhere and stop the frustration of wanting to play with dogs during class but my yard, my house, and me just can't handle two. (He's not a fan of cats either - my little one has had chunks taken out of her twice)

Help!!!!! I don't want to give up on him but I am exhausted, mentally and physically & bruised from the biting. How long should I expect it to take to start to see an improvement in his behavior with a training method? Recommended methods? Did I pick the wrong dog for me?

Vicki

[dobeluvr]

I'm not a trainer, Vicki, but I was wondering if you have ever watched Cesar Milan on the National Geographic Channel. He's on tomorrow night, I think at 8 or 9:00pm. He deals with all kinds of bad behavior in dogs and explains how you can become the leader of your pack.

I went back and read to see what dog you adopted and it looks like you have a doberteen there. All energy, all legs, all fun, all about him just all the time!

When you say he is "red zone" are you saying that he is growling and baring his teeth at you? Or is he barking to get your attention? (I don't like the way he is marking his territory in your bedroom.) The other behavior that you describe sounds like a typical teenager who has way too much energy and needs a job to do. How far do you run with him each day?

Is your trainer willing to take control of him and make him behave, or is he afraid of him too? The more he wins the stronger he gets, IMO.

I know this isn't very helpful, and there are people here who know a lot more about this than I do who can help you. I just thought I would lay some ground work while you wait for more responses.

Jane

[Stacie]

I'm sure you paid a pretty penny for your classes but I would dump your trainer! I had the same thing happen to me with our first boxer - we were actually refunded and asked not to come back because rip didn't like rotties much and kept going for one of our good friends (fellow officer) rott. I did find a good trainer who taught me instead of lectured - some dogs do well with a lecture and others do better with hands on - not only from you but from the trainer also. Whereabouts are you? Petsmart in Taylor has a great trainer who works with lots of bully breeds - and she interacts with both you and your dog. We had a foster boxer a little while ago who would jump on you constantly until he got attention - we would pull our hands to our chest, tell him off and sit and once he did what we said he would get the attention - it took a while for him to learn but he finally got it in his head that until he was calm he wasn't getting anything from us! Lilo is now starting to jump on you when she wants your attention - which we are happy to see because for the longest time she would shy away from the loving - but I am doing the same as we did with Max and she has picked up on it quickly. Now she will come bolting to the door when I get home and sit at my feet until I give her big hugs and kisses.

[bumpster]

I'm definitely not a dog trainer either, but I would like to make the suggestion that you read the book 'The Latchkey Dog' by Jodi Anderson. My niece is taking a Vet Tech course at college and it is recommended reading for the students. John and I read it, and it is very insightful on how to become the 'leader of your pack'. We have used some of the suggestions on Dude and it works very well.

Some of what you are describing sounds like dominance issues. Don't allow him on your furniture, or your bed. And use the 'nothing in life is free' technique, make him 'work' for everything. Have him sit before you feed him, have him do something (sit, down, shake, or whatever) before you give him a treat, by doing so you are establishing yourself as the leader of your pack.

Good Luck!

[Vicki]

Yes, Boomer's a teen - 1.5 & full of energy. I try to do 3.5 miles a day with him (I work full time). The cold weather has put a crimp in it - at less than 25 degrees he shivers in the cold so I don't take him. It really hasn't put a dent in his energy level. So, after watching at least 24 episodes of The Dog Wisperer (bought the first season set) I bought Boom a back pack. He now gets a 15 pound load & 3.5 miles and he's still wound to the hilt. If he grows out of it - I can deal with the rambunctiousness in the meantime.

The barking is with full teeth bared. He backs into a squat position barking with his whites showing then starts lunging at me poking me with his nose while snapping and on occasion grabbing skin (mine that is) while doing it. Yelling at him, yanking a pinch collar, etc.. stops him for about 10 seconds then he starts in even madder.

I have pinned him to the ground on numerous occasions until he calms - I can do it without getting bit but when released he comes at me full force.

I live in Brighton MI. Not sure if the guy is afraid of him. Don't think so. I don't pick it up. He keeps wanting me to use treats but Boomer is not the slightest bit food motivated from me while at class no matter what's in hand. He just wants to play.

I wasn't happy about his declaring dominence over me by peeing on my bedding either. He's also taking to pooping in the house now.

He's not always like this though - it's like a Jekle-Hyde. He can be the absolute sweetest then just decides to give me a piece of his mind. He is much better with men. When my friends visit or my family - it's like a perfect attentive angel to whatever they say. So I really haven't got his respect despite the pinning, pinch collar, ignoring, crating, scolding, and praising good behavior.

Vicki

[Vicki]

Yea, not allowed on the furniture. He peed on the side of the bed. He will run across the couch as he bolts up and down the stairs - haven't caught him to try to stop that one - it's at the bottom of my list.

By the way, he is fabulous on leash, a perfect, submissive, the person is in charge at all times type of dog. It's off the leash when Hyde comes out. I've tried leaving the leash on and attaching him to my belt - where I go, he goes. Good behavior while he's hooked up. Then I put the leash on and let him drag it around - he chews them to shreds when their nylon, the chain leash goes flying into walls and furniture as he's running through the house doing damage - not an option either.

[dobeluvr]

I think I would hire a professional to come to the house and observe how you handle Boomers and his reaction to your handling. It may be that you are too close to the situation to really see it. You have given so much effort and are so willing to do what it takes that I don't see this dog doing any better with anyone else.

I don't remember you saying that he is crated at all?

Jane

[doberpagegirl]

I am by no means an expert, but I would look for another trainer as well. The trainer we went to would take control of the dog herself. She says "every little thing is a dog fight, and he's winning". She was also willing to come to our house a couple of times to help us with issues. I would say Boomer does not see you as the alpha. I had the same problem with my Alley. She would listen to my boyfriend, but not to me. In my case, I was not being firm enough with her. Alley is 2 and she is very energetic, wild sometimes. Our trainer taught me how to take charge and make her listen. I really am amazed by the difference in her. I'm not located near you or I would recommend my trainer.

[bumpster]

I bought Boom a back pack. He now gets a 15 pound load & 3.5 miles and he's still wound to the hilt.

I applaud you in your efforts of trying to find something that will work, but I am wondering if this wouldn't cause some skeletal problems later in life?

[jmnodwell]

I have a friend, Maggie Ouillette, that comes into your home to help with training... check out her website Serendipity DogTraining and give her a call!!! 734 834 1952

She's in Whitmore Lake so that's not too far!!!

[Vicki]

](He is crated when I'm not home and at night)

According to all the info I can find on dog packs they can safely handle up to 1/4 their weight. Cesar's philosophy is to wear them down physically so they are able to reprogram mentally. Especially with trying to introduce them to a cat which they think is prey. It has helped take the edge off his energy level. Even my son commented that he's less wired since the back pack.

I've always had the philosophy never loose your temper with a dog - consistent firm control is key. After doing much reading on the site last night I decided what I hand't tried was Arda's method of let 'em have it like he's my ex husband. (tweeked that a little!) So, in typical Boomer mode of I'm on the computer so he doesn't have my undevided attention he started acting up. The barking and teeth came out. I gave him a piece of my mind - not out of control - but Loud. The neighbors probably heard that one. The result was he stopped and came over to me and sank his head in my lap and looked up with that "I'm sorry" look. This morning he was much more docile and even came to me, to the door, and back to me to go out instead of pooping on the living room floor. Keep your fingers crossed!

I'm going to my sisters this weekend where she's got 5 acres and two labs who love to play. Boomer should get a chance to really romp and enjoy some canine company.

I'll start looking around for a trainer that will come out see what's going on in the house - if anyone has any suggestions in the area please let me know. It looks like there's a gal in Flint which is not that far away which might be of help mentioned in one of the posts.

I love him and am not ready to give up - just needing a lot of help!

Vicki

[Vicki_Wood]

If you've ever watched a female dog with her pups; they act badly, they get nipped and they behave.

[bumpster]

After doing much reading on the site last night I decided what I hand't tried was Arda's method of let 'em have it like he's my ex husband. (tweeked that a little!) So, in typical Boomer mode of I'm on the computer so he doesn't have my undevided attention he started acting up. The barking and teeth came out. I gave him a piece of my mind - not out of control - but Loud. The neighbors probably heard that one. The result was he stopped and came over to me and sank his head in my lap and looked up with that "I'm sorry" look. This morning he was much more docile and even came to me, to the door, and back to me to go out instead of pooping on the living room floor. Keep your fingers crossed!

Maybe you've cracked the Boomer 'code'!!

[jmnodwell]

I've always had the philosophy never loose your temper with a dog - consistent firm control is key. After doing much reading on the site last night I decided what I hand't tried was Arda's method of let 'em have it like he's my ex husband. (tweeked that a little!) So, in typical Boomer mode of I'm on the computer so he doesn't have my undevided attention he started acting up. The barking and teeth came out. I gave him a piece of my mind - not out of control - but Loud. The neighbors probably heard that one. The result was he stopped and came over to me and sank his head in my lap and looked up with that "I'm sorry" look. This morning he was much more docile and even came to me, to the door, and back to me to go out instead of pooping on the living room floor. Keep your fingers crossed!

Even the height thing is part of the dominance stance... If you can stand taller and straighter, that shows you are exerting YOUR dominance in the pack... Every once and a while, I have to pull that on Bella. Not as much anymore but more frequently in the beginning and even with my foster Onyx, I have to stand straight and tower over him. He went after Munchkin a little last night. I've told him no before but last night I made it very clear, very loudly, and by grabbing him on the back of the neck and pushing his head down a couple of inches firmly, without being mean or nasty, that I meant business. I stood bending over him to show him it was necessary to listen to me. He looked up at me like, "OK I get it". He just watched Munch the rest of the night.

Also if you can, get into his space before he starts to jump up. Step into him, make him back up, and by giving up his space, he is giving up his perceived dominant role... it also makes it harder for him to box you...

[doberpagegirl]

I just wanted to add that I admire your determination. When we first brought our 2 dogs home, they got in a serious fight and ripped each other open. I was completely freaked out, but we didn't want to give up either. I was so frustrated at times that I really wasn't sure if we would make it. Someone on the board told me, "Remember these dogs didn't come to you by chance, it was for a reason." I am sure it is the same with Boomer, he picked you, and there is a reason. A lot of people would not have the patience to keep trying. So give yourself a pat on the back for all the effort and patience you are giving this boy.

[Stacie]

I've always had the philosophy never loose your temper with a dog - consistent firm control is key. After doing much reading on the site last night I decided what I hand't tried was Arda's method of let 'em have it like he's my ex husband. (tweeked that a little!) So, in typical Boomer mode of I'm on the computer so he doesn't have my undevided attention he started acting up. The barking and teeth came out. I gave him a piece of my mind - not out of control - but Loud. The neighbors probably heard that one. The result was he stopped and came over to me and sank his head in my lap and looked up with that "I'm sorry" look. This morning he was much more docile and even came to me, to the door, and back to me to go out instead of pooping on the living room floor. Keep your fingers crossed!
[/quote]

I would rather raise my voice like I am an uncontrollable idiot than use a pinch collar, or any kind of force. I was also told that the submissive roll is ok but can backfire on you - especially if you have a dog who is trying very hard to be the dominant one. When my dogs hear my voice now they know and they stop dead in their tracks - I don't have to resort to the p.o.'ed wife anymore - which has done wonders for my vocal chords. I hope that this works for you - and I have heard nothing but great things about Joni's friend!

[Dobiegirl51]

I agree with Stacie on the submissive roll, it backfired on my husband and the trainer we had said we should not have done that either seeing as we had no idea what Logan's past was like. In the begining we thought there was no hope for Logan or us but once he realized who was the boss and we all calmed down he is a very good boy!!!! He just HATES any kind of birds and the goose next door has caused all our problems...if the goose was gone I would have to say Logan is a very well behaved boy...contrary to poplar belief he still sleeps with us on occasion and has full run of the house....he just needed to know the ground rules and he responds very well with a loud harsh word of NO and he is very food motivated so that helps us....
Stand your ground with Boomer he will come around just be consistant with everything you do. Does he like to chew rawhides? I get Logan those giant rawhides and it keeps him occupied for hours and wears him out...all of a sudden we look over and he has fallen asleep.
Good luck with Boomer you sound like you have the determination to stick this out.....
Sally

[Stacie]

Rawhides are a good way to occupy - I prefer to get the bones with meat bits on them - they last forever (@ a week compared to a few hours) and I don't have to worry about them choking on a small piece because they cannot break anything off. Dobes are strong chewers and need something that can hold up to their mouths. Plus, they love the meaty bits and chew them for hours every day w/o hazard! If Boomer isn't food motivated find what does motivate him and make him work for it. Magnum and Lilo are made to sit before feeding time and going outside. They are allowed to snuggle with me in bed ONLY if I invite them up and they get no furniture access. Once I am ready to go to sleep it is off the bed and into their crates for their bedtime. Like Sally said - be consistent every time because it only takes one time of not and you have to start from the beg. again. He will come around once you make him understand that you are the alpha!

[Vicki]

I think Boomer has made a lot of progress in the last couple of months in many areas. He's no longer obsessing over tug toys, he's found there's other games to play which are just as fun (my arms and their sockets are much happier for that change!). That used to be a 24/7 thing with anyone and everyone. Pull, pull, pull, completely neurotic. He also no longer attacks the vacuum cleaner or the carpet cleaner. So progress has been made. Unfortunately his unwillingness to accept me in charge is not helping his instability in behavior. He'll go from barking and snapping to rolling over on his back wanting his belly rubbed. Arda told me he was played rough with and clearly that's all he knows. Playing means mouthing to him -he grabs the arms, shoulders, still working on changing that behavior to something much more enjoyable for all.

He unfortunately crossed the line with me on Sunday. Broke my heart. My son and my nephew were horsing around (14 and 18) and Boomer got anxious. I was on the other end of the room when I saw him squat back very anxious looking, give one warning bark, then lunge. My son got bit in the face. He got him in the lower eyelid - just millimeters from his eye. By the time I got to him and grabbed his collar to pull him back it was over. I don't think it was aggression or happy play - it was clearly he didn't like what was going on and he was going to stop it. It made him nervous - he's just not stable. If he viewed me as being in charge I don't think he would have felt the need to jump in. His continual fluctuating between dominating and submissive behavior makes him tough to predict and handle.

If I were by myself I would stick it out with him - I don't believe he's a lost cause - just unstable - needs a very firm hand (accepts it from men much better than women) - and a lot of time and love. I'd guess it will take a good year. A year, even a week, of potential for harming someones teenager like that I just can't accept. The thought of Nick loosing an eye makes me cringe. He crossed my line. Somewhere in here is a statement that they come into our lives for a reason. I believe that - and in this instance I don't believe it was for Boomers benefit so much as for mine. For me, it's accepting that I can't always fix everything. I'm the mediator in family squabbles. I'm the one who takes in every stray - be that animal or people. One hard lesson for me is that sometimes it is best to walk away and know you did your best but their path lies somewhere else.

I am still coming to terms with my decision because he does have a place in my heart & it's difficult to say enough. I greatly appreciate all the encouragement and advice from all of you.

Vicki

[dobeluvr]

It wouldn't be the first time that a dog misinterpreted wrestling between two people as fighting or disciplining. You can see it in the pack. When one gets picked on the whole pack surrounds the victim. It sounds like he needs to understand that ALL humans are his alpha not just the food provider. The tugging games also can reinforce their dominance if they win the tug. It can simulate fighting over a chunk of meat.

If you are considering returning him please contact Kathye, Karen, or Kari. They will arrange a time for you to drop him off. Sorry for both you and your family and Boomer.

Please keep the dog separated from children and other animals in the meantime.

Jane