31 replies to this topic

[Bumpette]

Ken asked him to sit several times. He then got up to correct him.

Ken should only ask him to sit once, then correct him. By asking him to sit several times, then making him, he is training Max to wonder just how many times something will be asked of him before he made to do it. Max is testing him, Ken shouldn't allow it, ever.

[Joaquin]

Ken should only ask him to sit once, then correct him. By asking him to sit several times, then making him, he is training Max to wonder just how many times something will be asked of him before he made to do it. Max is testing him, Ken shouldn't allow it, ever.

Darn right it's a test, and just as he'll learn he doesn't have to listen on the first command, he'll also learn he can control you by growling. The pup's mother wouldn't allow growling at her let alone biting and neither should you.

[Fred]

What a coincidence! Eden my oldest daughter, yesterday had a little run in with Mickey he swiped a small stuffed animal out of her room and as usual he proceeds to destroy it. She caught him in the process of the kill and when she started to scold him he got pretty aggressive barking and growling at her, I think he may have snapped at her. This happened during the day when I wasn’t home so I am not there to deal with the situation. I explained to her she can’t back down but I am not sure if I want her trying to throw him down into submissive position and all that stuff that goes with being dominate, he is 80 lbs and she doesn’t weigh much more. When I am around Mick is my dog when I am not around Eden is the next best thing and she does real good with him. I told her to get a hold of his collar (leather) left him up off of feet and take to kennel while scolding leave in kennel for 5-10 minutes and then let him out petting and talking nice again. I think he is trying to assert himself with her and I hope I am giving her good advice. Arda he is not on beds or furniture, been off for months. He has been real good up until yesterday.

[Bumpette]

I think it would be a good idea for Eden to do some obedience training with Mick. A formal class would be good, it would train her how to train him, and he would have to look to her as 'alpha'. Just a thought.

[Arda]

An obedience class is always a good idea. And NO she should not do an alpha roll with him. He could hurt her. Pick up the toys. Use the crate. I would not want her to grab the collar either. The Dobermann was designed to be able to get loose and he can and the consequences are big. Class, so the dog respects her.

[Cheri]

I have to weigh in here as being 100% in favor of formal obedience training. IMO all dogs need it, but especially big, powerful dogs like Dobermans. We all know that something that starts out as a small problem can get out of control, and I think a good obedience training foundation can be of enormous help. And IMO obedience training is not just something that you do one time, one class, one night a week for 6 or 8 weeks. Yes, get into a class, but also work on the exercises every day at home. Have family members attend the classes so they can see what is being taught. Have everyone in the family who is old enough work with the dog at home. When done properly, obedience training is a lot of fun for both you and the dog. Continue on to the advanced classes. Try agility or flyball or tracking. You will be amazed at the things you and your dog can learn. All of this goes to the basis of what we are talking about here, problems with aggression and dominance and making the dog understand you are the alpha.

There are dog trainers all over Michigan. But please do a little homework. Make sure you select a school/trainer that you are comfortable with. Ask around, get some recommendations. For both Max's family and Mickey's family, I'm sure there are members here on the board that can offer recommendations for trainers in your area. Before you even sign up, ask to observe a class without your dog first, then discuss the particular problems you are having with the trainer to make sure they are willing and able to give you a little extra attention in that regard. Like someone else said here, training is sooo much more than learning sit-down-stay.

Also, make sure your dogs are getting enough exercise. I know we're reaching the end of another long Michigan winter and many of us have been in hibernation, but dogs need physical exercise every day of the year. (Well, okay, people do too....) They also need mental stimulation. Here is where practicing formal training is useful, but think of fun things to do with your dogs, too. Teach them tricks (there are lots of books out there on this subject). Play hide and seek in the house with treats. Give them a good long brushing and massage. Teach them to have their teeth examined, their ears cleaned, their toenails trimmed. All of these things teach our dogs that we love them, we will take care of them, but we are in charge, and as long as they behave, life will be great for them!

[Arda]

Once upon a time......I had this female. Black cropped rescue with an attitude. I used to scramble the treat boxes all over the house. She'd go out to potty and when she came in to guard her biscuit boxes....they were gone. So she exercised around the house till she found one. Flipped the top and had a treat and then laid down in front of it to guard the biscuits. This went on for years. Try to put a pill down her throat and she would show you aggression. Darn, she could bite. We lost Toot at 2 months shy her 16th birthday. Dogs need exercise and this old girl was not exercising for anything short of food. Longevity and exercise go hand in hand. Darn.....I miss that old grump......and so it goes...........

[Bumpette]

Darn.....I miss that old grump......and so it goes...........

So do I.

I enjoyed being one of her 'people' last September.

[Sue]

Why don't we look at it from the dog's point of view. Always remember dogs are dogs. They do not come knowing how to act in our world, we have to teach them. Many foster dogs come with baggage and triggers from past experiences that are a part of them and can in most cases not be changed. They are not people. They do not think like us and do not have ulterior motives. They do not test us, push our buttons, try to be boss, or feel guilty. Dogs are incapable of abstract thoughts. They are self-serving and do things for the moment. If they are doing something wrong, it is because we perceive it as wrong. They are just doing what is natural for them.

There are only two things that matter to a dog. First, what is or isn’t safe and second, what does or doesn’t feel good. They will communicate first through body language and they will read our body language. If you are upset with your dog, it will come through in your body language whether you say anything or not. Check it out in the mirror and try to say something when you are mad. Our bodies and facial expressions betray what our mind is thinking. Mistaken we think that when a dog acts submissively to lets say for example a “stern NO!“ that the dog understands he did something wrong or is sorry. When in actuality, the dog is just responding to the signals your body is sending him. A stern "NO!" or "Sit" is also accompanied with a foreboding look on the face and bending over the dog. That body language tells the dog that you are not a safe person and they responds accordingly with a change in their body language. When a dog is in a fearful/arroused state, they only think of one thing.... protect themself. He is plain and simple protecting himself. Darn right he will bite. By correcting him you are making the behavior worse and exacerbate the problem. It can also teach him that using a warning growl is dangerous and he will no longer warn you with his warning system. He could become a time bomb and bite without warning.

Why doesn't a dog respond to ques? Dogs don't respond for several reasons:
1. Social Pressure, you may be causing stress on the dog. A stressed dog cannot learn or respond.
2. Environment, dogs are affected by the environment. New things can overwhelm them.
3. The paycheck to do the request is is not rewarding enough.
4. Inconsistent cues, timing and consistency is crucial. Always use a clear cue for each behavior wanted and mark the event and release the dog when done.
5. The dog is confused about what is expected of them. Just because the dog does it doesn’t mean they knows it.

When looking for a trainer, look for a "behaviorist" and not a "trainer". Teaching to heel and sit are teaching skills. You are looking for problem solving skills. Most trainers don't go into the rhelm of problem solving. Although doing things with your dogs is great, a behaviorist can show you what is going wrong and help you develop a plan on teaching an alternative behavior. Dogs can not be taught what not to do but only what to do.

Many responses you have received are in regards to resource guarding. From your posts, he doesn't seem to be resource guarding. Setting up a plan of management for resource guarding will not help you in this instance. So, managing a dog to not go on the furniture is a good thing in a resource guarding situation but this is not what I am hearing from your posts.

Edited by Sue, 25 February 2009 - 04:34 PM.

[Stacie]

I have to add my 2 cents here. Sharon, when Max was younger did he have some aggression issues with your husband? I know it was a post from over a year ago that I am thinking of and not sure if it was you or someone else so correct me if I"m wrong. How did you handle it then? I am a firm believer in being the alpha of your pack - that requires training for you and your dogs. Obedience classes are a wonderful bonding experience for both and as stated by many others here a great way to establish the role of command w/o having to be overly dominant. Not only will Max look for guidance from your husband but he will also learn that good behavior gets rewarded with love (sometimes treats but I believe in affection over treats - then you don't get overweight dogs), he will get socialized with other people and dogs and learn many other things. Lots of exercise and the crate - I have 4 crates up in my spare bedroom (the dogs room) and I use them. I know a lot of people say no dogs on the furniture - I do agree with that but I will be honest and tell you that I don't follow through with it. But, I also know that when I want to sit down and my couch is loaded with dogs I don't have to say a word - I just point to the floor and it is cleared instantly. They also don't get up when I'm on it unless invited - otherwise they are on the floor. NOT EVERY DOG IS LIKE THAT THOUGH....I am fortunate enough to have dogs that know the chain of command and are rather submissive - and I did follow the no dogs on the furniture for a long time - until I got to know each one for who they are. And they all know that when a new dog comes in - no furniture until the new dog is gone to their forever home - boy, dogs are smart when given the opportunity. I hope all works for you guys.

[janeway]

One thing I love about Cesar Millan is his use of touch. He does use his hands in particular ways about the body, but always says it's to snap the dog out of his state of mind, and not to bully. I think a lot of people have Cesar wrong because they have seen him put the dog on the ground, but it's rarelya struggle, and I've certainly never seen him "body slam" a dog to the ground. That does seem excessive. Don't SIT on the dog jeez!

I like the other advice here. There are better ways to be physical, but you might want Ken to resort to the leash for manipulation for now. Sometimes you can use it just to tire the dog out. What about exercise? How much exercise does the dog get? Does he have a job in the house? Does he do tricks or perform duties of any kind?

What I see is that Max sees your husband as a bully...and his growling and snapping WILL get worse if Ken keeps demanding things of Max using brute force. Max is protecting himself, plain and simple. Max is reacting to Ken out of fear for his safety, hence his escalation of defensive behavior (growling and snapping). Your husband is pushing Max to this degree with force...training does not, nor should it ever be, a battle.

Forcing Max into submission will only lead to the creation of a ticking time bomb. All that's happening when Max submits is suppression of the defensive behavior. In a nutshell, you're teaching him helplessness, which is not going to solve the problem. In order to stop the defensive behavior, Max needs to feel as though he's safe in the presence of your husband, not that he HAS to do something or ELSE. Suppressing the defensive behavior does not make it go away. It merely causes it to wait below the surface until the animal has reached a breaking point and can't stand to take any more bullying. At this point, he truly will bite with a vengeance. If you're seeing an escalation in the defensive behavior, using more force is only going to make it worse. Dogs perceive everything in their environment as either safe or dangerous...and Max sees your husband as a threat to his safety.

One thing to keep in mind about dogs and how they learn is that learning cannot take place when a dog is in a state of fear. If Max is afraid of your husband (which, to me, is certainly the case if he's growling and snapping at him in an effort to protect himself based on what you've described), the only thing on his mind is what he needs to be doing to protect himself. A dog's sense of survival will win out every time in any situation where fear and intimidation on the part of the human is involved. Max doesn't listen to Ken because he feels that he's going to be bullied, and, quite frankly, he sounds like he's tired of it.

Kids that are bullied out on the playground learn to resent the bully, and pretty soon, learn to resent having to go outside at all as they know from experience what the consequence is going to be.

Please be very careful with this dog and try to work toward building a positive safety history with him by not bullying him, but rather using more positive methods in your training. Dobermans certainly are tough dogs, but they, too, have a breaking point.

[CAB]

Does he have a job in the house? Does he do tricks or perform duties of any kind?

Tell me more.......about having a job and performing duties.........what can I teach my dogs to do?